posted on May 22, 2002 02:04:12 PM new
Well, looks like I'm the latest victim of their "Flagging" system. I wish I would have seen all of this BEFORE I used paypal!
I have a verified business account and
On May 14, I sent a payment to another paypal member, I was purchasing his software company and we agreed that I would pay 1/2 upfront and 1/2 after the transfer was completed.
I sent the first payment of $2500.00 on May 14, 2002 as well as transfered almost $4000.00 to my paypal account from my bank account to cover the final transaction.
The seller sent me all the info so I sent out his next payment on the 15th, however Paypal hadn't posted the ach transfer to my account yet (but the funny thing is when I logged into my bank account it already showed that they had sucked the $4000.00 out of my account)
At 2:44 pm I got a notice stating that my account was restricted and to click on their link - I did so, followed the instructions and faxed all the required documentation.
I called and they said it took upto three hours but no more than 24 for the info to "attach" to my account. In the meantime I have an irrate seller on my hands (see why below!) Well I waited and waited and sent an e-mail that evening at 9:00 about it, and never received a response.
Next day, May 16 - I called again. She said it still hadn't "attached" to my account and to try back tomorrow.
Well me being the little smart a** that I can be sometimes, - I went straight upstairs to my fax machine with all the papers and a roll of scotch tape >, I took their d** fax coversheet and all of my documents and taped them together from one to the next, fed them into the fax machine, then when it started sending, finished it off by taping them into a loop. After about 6 loops I stopped it because obviously it is computer based and figured next they would try to nail me for a "Denial of Service" attack. But guess what - the next day I got an e-mail stating they received my documents!! Thank god for scotch tape
Anywyay - I have called them just about everyday and they refuse to tell me why my account is restricted, The ach finally showed up in my account on May 20th and they refuse to reverse the ach because my account is "restricted" so I have contacted my bank to get my money back out of my account as well as the money charged to my credit card and taken from my account to cover the transaction. They reversed the transaction to the seller, but are sitting on the funds. Usually when something is reversed, it should go back to the buyers account NOT PAYPALS ACCOUNT!!
This is the e-mail they sent to the seller, they basically make me look like some scam artist or something which i DO NOT appriciate at all since I run a reputable software development company:
Dear xxx xxxx,
It has come to our attention that you may be the recipient of
potentially fraudulent funds. We have initiated an investigation
into this event. In the meantime, we have placed a
pending reversal on the funds in question until the
investigation is complete. This pending reversal will
show as a deduction in your available balance. In
the meantime, you are free to continue transacting using
your PayPal account.
If you have not delivered the goods or services related to this
transaction, we ask that you delay or stop delivery until our
investigation is complete as you may be liable for the amount
in question.
Can you say "slander???" The seller was irrate, he thought I was trying to scam him!!! I don't blame him, I would be too if I received a message like this after transfering a company to someone!! He would call and they would tell him all kinds of BS like I still hadn't faxed my documents, etc. making me and my company look bad!
In the meantime I have spent money on certified checks, international fedex fees and now barely have enough money in my business account to cover my payroll because PAYPAL IS SUCH A SCAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted on May 22, 2002 07:36:21 PM new
Damon, you said in another post that "float" was not an issue. If so, then why in many cases do you just wait for money to go into the account, and once the transaction is completed, then restrict the account? Why don't you reverse the transaction back to where it came from if you think it is "suspicious" before you restrict the account?
uebersoft, you taught the board a good lesson. When all else fails, tape your faxed information in a loop before you fax it.
I am agreeing about the float. When it comes to restricting accounts, I seem to be noticing a pattern here in that the accounts that get restricted are either international or high volume sellers.
Is to avoid the government to look into this. Part of my research on the other other thread I started is that in for an Attorney General or the FTC to get involved, a consumer has to be effected. However, when paypal restricts an account of a seller, this is a business to business transaction and is under the jurstiction of the AG or FTC
posted on May 23, 2002 10:27:30 AM new
here is supposidly what happend:
On May 1 we moved and my paypal account information was out of date, but I assumed that I had to keep my old info in there until I notified my bank of my move and was afraid to change it after the account was restricted because I didn't know how fast customer service would get the update.
I guess they attempted to telephone me in regards to the high transactions, but the phone had been disconnected . Here's a suggestion - try e-mailing your customers as well to let them know you tried to contact them BEFORE restricting their accounts! I know my credit card companies always verify stuff before they turn off your card and they do phone, email and snail mail.
Unfortunately no one would tell me this each time I called. I just kept getting the same crappy response "We cannot tell you why it's under investigation" - well how are you going to fix it then?
Damon Has been a tremenous help in this matter - I'm pleased that he could tell me everything I needed to know to fix the problem but everyone else at paypal refused.
I'm still not 100% happy, and won't be untill the restriction is lifted!
posted on May 23, 2002 12:12:28 PM new
Hi uebersoft,
All issues with the account should be resolved as of now. Many thanks for your patience...I also apologize for any inconvenience our anti-fraud measures caused.
posted on May 23, 2002 01:17:29 PM new
I would like to ask a question of the Poster I hope you come back.
Did the bank and credit card company get the transactions stopped for you or did it get resolved first?
If they got it stopped for you first cause you sent checks by fedX won't paypal restirct your account again or charge you fees for protecting yourself. It is in their terms of use they will.
I hope it is actually over for you but I am not hearing that fat lady sing at the moment.
posted on May 23, 2002 01:29:20 PM new
Actually Damon got it resolved before I even received the paperwork from the bank.
Your probably right about them re-restricting the account and charging fee's, but to me that was minimumal compared to the amount of money that was currently in limbo (Almost 10K)
I think paypal has a good idea but from a programmers standpoint, they have ALOT of bugs to work out in their system/business process. I can understand restrictive actions, however the customer needs to be informed and feel that they still have control over their money. I'm sure they may have stopped some fraud, but in the process they have also probably lost alot of customers. The customer must come first, period.
I will keep my account open, but only to receive payments for software from those people that still see a need to use paypal, but as far as transactions such as this, I will never use them for it again.
posted on May 30, 2002 09:07:53 PM new
Contact the FBI. They have a specific complaint section for this type of, in my opinion, financial crime. I know they are gathering data on similar complaints against this company.
Contact the Secret Service and file a complaint. They investigate fraud of this nature.
Write letters to:
Carl Pascarella - President of Visa
Robert Selander - President of Mastercard
Let these people know their Visa and Mastercard customers both sellers and buyers are risk.
Contact the State Attoney General for both California and Nebraska. Additionally, contact the Attorney General in your own state. PayPal is, I believe, barred from doing business in some states.
Contact the Attorney General of USA.
Contact the Securities and Exchange Commission. Send copies of these complaints to every analyst that covers PayPal.
Alert the Federal Trade Commission.
Send data and all information including website complaints such as these to the executive producers of Dateline NBC, 60 Minutes CBS, Bill O'Riley at Fox News - if
you recall, he finally got relief for the 9/11 victims.
Don't forget the General Accounting Office and the IRS. It's obvious to me these people have internal cash flow problems and, I suspect, they are using your money to alleviate these problems.
In summary, contact people who are in the position to help not only you but others. In my opinion, this company is nothing more than a front for organized crime; and, in order to protect the innocent and legitimate business person, it needs to be shut down. I know of no other company that uses the sordid business tactics this company employs. I think it has a bad smell to it.
Excellent post! Very useful information. There are those who post here that will vehemently disagree (uaru & croonr for example) - but I know I speak for the majority when I say we couldn't agree more! Thank You!!
posted on May 31, 2002 09:07:11 AM new
UARU seems to be in the know. Does he know that the FDIC and the California Attorney General's office have active investigations going on Paypal. Maybe he knows about the one in Nebraska also. OOOOOPPS forgot to mention New York.
Damon says>>>>Would you mind telling the other users what is happening here? LMAO
posted on May 31, 2002 12:54:03 PM newclub1manUARU seems to be in the know. Does he know that the FDIC and the California Attorney General's office have active investigations going on Paypal.
Actually I don't know about any FDIC investigation, please fill me in. The last I heard the FDIC issued an opinion in favor of PayPal which will probably have a lot of weight with individual state regulations.
posted on May 31, 2002 02:02:35 PM new
Most of the posts in newsbytes comes from their public relations department. Sure hope their more reliable than their customer service. Mine comes from talking to people who know.
By the way can you vouch for the credibility of the link you posted in reference to the Fbi
Here's who it belongs to FROM THE UK? according to WHO IS
Registrant:
McFarlane Associates (ITSECURITY-DOM)
Windsor House
Spittal Street
Marlow, Bucks SL9 9NR
UK
Domain Name: ITSECURITY.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Comley, Chris (CC1975) [email protected]
Constellation Internet Ltd
Challenger House
42 Adler Street
London
E1
1EN
UK
+44 020 7982 7711 (FAX) +44 020 7982 7700
Record expires on 07-Jan-2003.
Record created on 06-Jan-1997.
Database last updated on 31-May-2002 17:05:53 EDT.
posted on May 31, 2002 03:26:17 PM newclub1manMost of the posts in newsbytes comes from their public relations department. Sure hope their more reliable than their customer service. Mine comes from talking to people who know. By the way can you vouch for the credibility of the link you posted in reference to the Fbi Here's who it belongs to FROM THE UK? according to WHO IS
Now that's rich. I supply a link to a computer security news site and you ask me to vouch for it's credibility. In return when I ask you to supply your source/link you respond with, "Mine comes from talking to people who know."
posted on May 31, 2002 04:53:52 PM new
uaru - RE: "I think there's a good reason you didn't name the states they are barred in, because there aren't any."
Well... not yet anyway.
Also from PayPal's 2/14/2002 S-1/A (SEC) filing:
"More than 40 states in the U.S. regulate bill payers... which we refer to collectively as 'money services businesses.' ... the application of these statutes to online payment service providers has not been interpreted by courts or regulatory authorities. Based on the specific provisions of many of these state statutes, we believe that money services regulations cover our business only in our home state of California. In other states, we believe the nature of our services or our fee structure exclude us from the statutes' licensing requirements and money services regulation.
Our analysis is subject to significant uncertainty, however, and we cannot assure you that state regulators and courts will agree with our interpretations. We initially contacted regulatory authorities in the 31 states, including the District of Columbia, that we believed were subject to the greatest uncertainty, to describe our service and state the basis for our belief that their current statutes do not apply to our product. Eight states did not reply to our inquiries.
Based on our most recent review of state law amendments and enactments in 2001, we have made inquiries in an additional four states: Minnesota, Colorado, Texas and Vermont. Based on the replies received, without retracting our analysis, we have applied or are preparing applications for money services business licenses in a total of 17 states and the District of Columbia, including 15 jurisdictions where the regulatory authorities have indicated they believe our services require a money services business license, and three states where our review of recent state law enactments indicates that we may be required to apply for a license. The 15 jurisdictions that have indicated they believe we require a money services business license are Arizona, California (as to transmission of money abroad), Colorado, the District of Columbia, Idaho, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts (as to transmission of money abroad), Maryland, Nebraska, Oregon, Texas, Virginia, Vermont and West Virginia. The three states where our own review indicates that we may be required to apply for a license are Connecticut, Minnesota and North Carolina.
Of these 18 jurisdictions, we have obtained a money services business license in only three states, Oregon, West Virginia and Maryland. In the other 15 jurisdictions where we have applied or are preparing to apply, we could be deemed to be operating in violation of law. Except for Louisiana, none of these states have notified us that they intend to fine us or suspend our ability to do business with residents of their states.
On February 7, 2002 the Louisiana Office of Financial Institutions sent a letter to our regulatory counsel directing us to cease performing money transmission services for Louisiana consumers and businesses at least until we have resolved the issue of whether we are engaged in the business of banking without a license... In the 15 jurisdictions where we have applied or are preparing to apply for a money services business license, we have filed applications in three states, and are preparing applications in 12 states. The three jurisdictions where we have filed applications are California, the District of Columbia and Virginia. Our application in California has not been deemed complete. We must re-apply in the District of Columbia because our prior application must be updated. Our application in Virginia was deemed incomplete and we are preparing to re-file it... The 12 states where we are preparing to file applications are Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, Idaho, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nebraska, North Carolina, Texas and Vermont."
posted on May 31, 2002 05:38:08 PM new
lilcrafty1 from PayPal's 2/14/2002 S-1/A (SEC) filing: On February 7, 2002 the Louisiana Office of Financial Institutions sent a letter to our regulatory counsel directing us to cease performing money transmission services for Louisiana consumers and businesses at least until we have resolved the issue of whether we are engaged in the business of banking without a license.
Yes, that was the information in Feb. Here's some more current information in March.
Last month, Louisiana, which updated its money transmitter law last fall, asked PayPal to stop offering its service to the state's residents. The state later withdrew the request, and PayPal received a money transmitter license from Louisiana this week.CNet News 3/27/2002
Will you agree that Hareled was completely wrong about PayPal being banned in some states? He didn't and couldn't name any states PayPal is banned in because they aren't banned in any state.
posted on May 31, 2002 08:47:08 PM new
Just like I said previously, I agree that they are not banned YET. As you can see from the text of their filing, even PayPal isn't sure if they will be able to continue doing business in the states that have 'money service regulations' - Of the 'More than 40 states' - they have only 3 licenses. And the 3 additional applications that they HAVE filed have all been deemed incomplete.
The SEC form goes on to say "...Even if all of these state license applications are ultimately granted, state regulatory authorities have the ability to impose fines and other penalties for the period of time we provided services without a license to residents of those states that require us to have a license. Under the recently enacted International Money Laundering Abatement and Financial Anti-Terrorism Act of 2001, or IML Act, we could be subject to federal civil and criminal penalties if we are deemed to be operating without an appropriate money transmitting license in a state where such operation is punishable as a misdemeanor or a felony under state law..."
posted on May 31, 2002 09:26:23 PM new
UEBERSOFT DON'T CONTACT dAMON ABOUT ANYTHING HE IS SOME SORT OF YES MAN FOR PAYPAL HE IS A LIAR. I WOULD SAY FROM WHAT I HEAR YOUR MONEY IS BEING USED TO PAY OFF BAD INVESTMENTS THAT PAYPAL HAS MADE GO TO WWW.ABOUTPAYPAL.ORG CONTACT YOUR ATTORNEY AND FILE IN SMALL CLAIMS COURT NOW. THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF GIVING YOU A DIME AND THEY WILL TELL YOU LIE AFTER LIE ESPECIALLY THEIR WHIPING BOY DAMON
posted on June 1, 2002 09:29:07 PM new
Uaru: PayPal does not assist the Internet Fraud Complaint Center as you claim. The article you posted said they participated in a conference about the Internet Fraud Complaint Center. Yes, the article states PayPal worked with the FBI on fraud. This is just PR puffery. MasterCard, Visa, Amex, just about any financial company could say they worked with the FBI regarding fraud. Anyway they have no formal relationship assisting the IFCC. Your posts seem to frequently bend reality to support Paypal which sadly makes you as bad as people who exaggerate to criticize PayPal.
posted on June 1, 2002 10:29:45 PM newFlaoislandYour posts seem to frequently bend reality to support Paypal which sadly makes you as bad as people who exaggerate to criticize PayPal.
I look forward to your equal scrutiny of those that critize PayPal with no more than a "Mine comes from talking to people who know," as their source of information.
You seem to be willing to point your finger at me at what you feel is 'bending reality' but you don't seem to have a problem or don't seem to express any problem with posts from some others that leave reality completely. Why is that?
Perhaps when see you point your finger at some of the obviously complete departures from reality I'll feel you are a true unbiased observer.
posted on June 2, 2002 12:16:53 AM new
UNBIASED ? with almost 3600 posts on this board alone payponzi must be paying you more than Damon. Your worse than him because you tell people that have legitimite problems with payponzi that their wrong and payponzi is right. GET A LIFE.
[ edited by club1man on Jun 2, 2002 12:22 AM ]
posted on June 2, 2002 11:08:35 AM new
coonr re: "It appears he has a nice life. His boat has not been repo'ed and he is not there traashing anybody or anything."
His (uaru's) condescending attitude is nothing more than subtle 'trashing'. And it's constant.
posted on June 2, 2002 11:48:22 AM new
Uaru: Basically PayPal has extremely bad customer service that has caused so many people great anguish. Do you acknowledge this? Can you? I did absolutely nothing contrary to PayPal terms. When my account was accessed fraudulently PayPal would not help. I had to complain to Travelers in order to get help. Travelers was not satisfied with PayPal customer service either. Later I found out that they are no longer doing business with PayPal. You are right some of the posts here are strange. But this is not a company to support or defend. But you do. I find that hard to comprehend.
, I took their d** fax coversheet and all of my documents and taped them together from one to the next, fed them into the fax machine, then when it started sending, finished it off by taping them into a loop. After about 6 loops I stopped it because obviously it is computer based and figured next they would try to nail me for a "Denial of Service" attack. But guess what - the next day I got an e-mail stating they received my documents!! Thank god for scotch tape