posted on May 21, 2002 02:25:29 PM new
After sending the customers complaint form twice to Paypal they did not answer for weeks. I bought something in Korea and this company is restricted at Paypal (they told me that after the transaction with Paypal was done). How can Paypal pay my money to a restricted company and then do nothing to refund my money? If somebody from Paypal reads this, my transaction ID:
9J1881538H3816739
Unbelievable!!!!!!
rgds
Ansgar
RE: "...How can Paypal pay my money to a restricted company and then do nothing to refund my money?"
If you read enough of the messages on this board, you'll find that, while it certainly SHOULD be, it's not unheard of. (Just keep your fingers crossed that they don't restrict your account, too). 'Customer Service' is virtually non-existant at Pay-Pal. Good luck to you!
posted on May 21, 2002 05:44:14 PM new
Hi akrukau,
I have discussed this matter with you via email.
-The Buyer Complaint you filed was for merchandise quality, not for non-receipt of merchandise. This caused your initial complaint to be rejected (we do notate the account of the seller to make sure there are not ongoing issues).
The seller, if there is money in their account and they are restricted, can authorize a refund by emailing us.
posted on May 21, 2002 06:01:58 PM new
The problem is: the seller does not answer to my mails and apparently does not contact you. If such transactions to restricted members would not be possible I would not have problems. I am not able to solve the problem from Germany with a seller in Korea.
What if you contact them ( [email protected] or [email protected] )by yourselves asking them if they authorize the refund. Maybe they answer your mails? I subscribed Paypal because it looked like a safe alternative method of payment. But it looks like that Paypal is transferring money over the whole world even to restricted members.
posted on May 21, 2002 06:09:51 PM new
The problem is that paypal does allow money to go into a restricted account. If an account is restricted, paypal should not allow money to go into that account.
From Damon's response, it sounds like a quality of goods issue which is not covered under PayPal's TOS. If the seller does not authorize the refund, then do a chargeback on the credit card.
posted on May 21, 2002 06:22:17 PM new
I clarified that with Paypal already I used the wrong complaint form. But even if I have used the right one only the seller can authorize the refund but the seller apparently is not interested in contacting Paypal.As I told this before: I bought online, the order form showed bank transfer or Paypal. This company did not accept credit cards. So I took Paypal and after the money was transferred to the seller he told me that he is restricted since one month.
Easy thing to make money with the help of Paypal. I am sitting here in Germany and the guys in Korea are laughing about me....
posted on May 21, 2002 07:42:46 PM new
if you did not receive the goods,you can file ebay insurance,if you bot it on ebay,there is dedutible and max amount .if you have received the goods and not happy,no one can help you but the seller.
this is the risk of buying from stranger without seeing the merchandise.
posted on May 21, 2002 07:43:16 PM new
Write to the Nebraska Attorney General. I received a letter from them today saying they forwarded a copy of my complaint to paypal and requested an answer in writing. Maybe with enough complaints they'll help clean this garbage up.
Office of the Attorney General
2115 State Capitol Building
Lincoln,NE 68509
Att: Don Stenberg
posted on May 22, 2002 05:25:59 AM new
if you used a credit card to fund the transaction then its simple just charge it back and paypal will have to sort it out.
thats what i would do.
if you used bank funds or paypal fund then no luck you will have to sweat it out.
When you paid for this item via paypal, did you use a credit card?
If so, you need to call the phone number on the back of the credit card, and tell them you need to 'Charge Back' something you purchased with that credit card.
I don't think you used the 'wrong' complaint form, you're just complaining for the wrong reason (as far as paypal is concerned). As I understand it, there are two types of buyer complaints. #1 is that you didn't receive the item you paid for. #2 is there's something wrong with the item (or you don't like it, etc).
Paypal doesn't REALLY cover either one of these, but they like to say that they'll 'attempt' to do something if you are complaining with reason #1 (As long as you can prove that you've followed every single letter of the Terms of Use under the 'Buyer Complaint Process'). And even then, you'll only get money back IF the seller has $$ in their PayPal account. (This doesn't happen very often).
You may as well not even bother with PayPal if (as you apparently are) you have reason #2. They couldn't care less. Like Damon said "...The Buyer Complaint you filed was for merchandise quality, not for non-receipt of merchandise. This caused your initial complaint to be rejected". It doesn't mean you used the wrong form. It means they basically throw away complaint forms that are due to merchandise quality.
Re your response: "...-The Buyer Complaint you filed was for merchandise quality, not for non-receipt of merchandise. This caused your initial complaint to be rejected (we do notate the account of the seller to make sure there are not ongoing issues)."
My Question: What if there ARE on-going issues with the seller? If I'm the buyer, is this information you're going to give to me? In other words, if there ARE on-going issues, what do you do next?
Also re: A removal can't occur without:
a) the seller authorizing it
b) a buyer complaint was awarded in your favor
Please clarify - do you mean a removal can't occur without a OR b, or do you mean a AND b?
posted on May 22, 2002 11:49:27 AM new
Another question Damon:
Re your 'clarification': "When you send a payment to another party, and that party has claimed it, then that payment belongs to the party holding the account."
My question: Who do you consider to be 'holding the account' if the account is restricted? If the account has been restricted, how did the seller 'claim' the payment?
posted on May 22, 2002 12:38:12 PM new
Hi ltlcrafty1,
As I had advised earlier, a restricted account is a resolvable issue. The restriction can be removed with the cooperation of the party in question.
Restrictions can be in place to allow for payments (many sellers requested this, as they would like to settle the issues with their PayPal account AND accept payments). A restriction can also be placed that will not allow for payments to come into the account. The second item is an item the seller can also specifically request if the account is restricted.
A removal from another account can't occur without (a) or (b) occurring.
I can't discuss another person's account in detail with anyone. If a seller is having an issue with a restriction, I can't discuss it with the buyer.
In this case, I advised the buyer what they could do to attempt recovery. The easiest solution was to ask the seller to ok the refund, which would only occur if money was in the seller's account.
In addition, your recommendation about going to the credit card company directly is not correct. Our USER AGREEMENT does specify that a buyer MUST file a Buyer Complaint before doing so. Why? Because we may be able to recover for the party (no guarantee). This could create a circumstance where the buyer is restricted for double-dipping, as they would have received a credit through the refund/buyer complaint process AND received a credit from their credit card company for the chargeback.
While I appreciate your right to express an opinion, the advice you give actually makes a matter potentially worse for the party you are giving the advice to.
posted on May 22, 2002 12:39:23 PM new
dear all,
first of all: thanks for yr replies and help in this matter. it looks like paypal reacts within one day after making my problem public on this board after non reaction on their website for four weeks. even if i took the wrong complaint form nobody told me that i have taken the wrong one. there was simply no reaction.
ltlcrafty1:
yes i used a credit card and after all i think it would have been the easiest simply to call them and ask to charge my money back. but i thought that my account at paypal then will be restricted. (at the moment i don't think i will use paypal in the future).
damon:
the seller never claimed any money. one day after the transaction he told me that he don't want my money via paypal as they are restricted (for reasons that have paypal caused and not him). he asked me to use the complaint form. as he didn't claimed the money how can it belong to him? you transferred the money as if everything with this member was ok. but it wasn't!!! ok, the seller brought him and me in this situation as he didn't changed his order form but he clarified it only one day later. ltlcrafty1 is totally wright in my opinion: how can somebody claim money when his account is restricted???
posted on May 22, 2002 12:54:13 PM new
damon,
thanx for explaining us the forms of restrictions. i thought a restricted member can do no transactions with paypal. i received an e-mail by the seller today (after 4 weeks, because of an serious computer virus?! he told me, hmmm...) where he explained why he does not accept payment by paypal: he has some thousand us-dollars on the paypal account but as a korean he cannot withdraw money from the paypal account. now: if he by himself asked you to restrict his account for incoming payments why did you process the payment?
You said: "The Buyer Complaint you filed was for merchandise quality, not for non-receipt of merchandise. This caused your initial complaint to be rejected (we do notate the account of the seller to make sure there are not ongoing issues)."
I asked: "My Question: What if there ARE on-going issues with the seller? If I'm the buyer, is this information you're going to give to me? In other words, if there ARE on-going issues, what do you do next?"
You said: "I can't discuss another person's account in detail with anyone. If a seller is having an issue with a restriction, I can't discuss it with the buyer."
THE PROBLEM: That's not what I asked. My question had nothing to do with the sellers account being restricted. You said you notate the sellers account to make sure there are not ongoing issues. What if there are on-going issues? What do you do with that info? i.e., Why do you 'notate the sellers account?'
posted on May 22, 2002 01:52:35 PM new
Damon - RE your response: "In addition, your recommendation about going to the credit card company directly is not correct. Our USER AGREEMENT does specify that a buyer MUST file a Buyer Complaint before doing so. Why? Because we may be able to recover for the party (no guarantee). This could create a circumstance where the buyer is restricted for double-dipping, as they would have received a credit through the refund/buyer complaint process AND received a credit from their credit card company for the chargeback."
#1 - You have said that your buyer complaint policy does not cover 'quality of goods' issues. If I know my complaint is for quality of goods, I know my claim will automatically be rejected by paypal - So what's your point? How could the person be restricted for 'double-dipping' if your policy doesn't cover claims for quality of goods? You're not going to refund the money to them.
RE Your response: "While I appreciate your right to express an opinion, the advice you give actually makes a matter potentially worse for the party you are giving the advice to."
#2 - At least with my advice, the buyer has a CHANCE at recovering their $$, and according to your own words... "Account restrictions are totally resolvable and quite rare"... In fact you make it sound like they're 'No big deal' - so they get refunded twice and their account gets restricted, then they give 1 refund back to PayPal, and they get unrestricted... at least they got their money back. How is that "making a matter potentially worse" for them?
Your response is appreciated.
YOUR advice is (always) designed to protect paypal. MY advice was to a buyer with a quality of goods issue on how to protect themselves.
posted on May 22, 2002 07:30:09 PM new
Damon, the buyer here DID file a buyer complaint, as they and you have said here:
-The Buyer Complaint you filed was for merchandise quality, not for non-receipt of merchandise. This caused your initial complaint to be rejected (we do notate the account of the seller to make sure there are not ongoing issues).
Since the buyer already filed a buyer complaint, why would it be in violation of the user agreement for them to go directly to their credit card company?
posted on May 22, 2002 09:55:33 PM new
Just withdraw your money from your account file a chargeback with your credit card company and then RESTRICT payponzi
Please see my questions (3 posts up ^^^^^^) from yesterday. I understand you are very busy, and I also understand that you are not required to answer questions. But I think sometimes you give answers that even you know don't make sense, and you just hope no one questions them. (For another example, please see my question to you on Page 2 of the thread started by tchaser200 'PayPal Chargeback-Research Project' from May 10 @ 11:44am).
When someone does challenge your answers, many times you just ignore it completely. I also understand what you've said in the past about the 'combative nature of this board', however, 1/2 answers or answers that don't make sense can sometimes cause people to become combative.
If you can't back up what you've said, there's a problem with it. If you prefer not to respond with answers that actually address the questions asked, please provide the name and phone number of someone at your company that can. Thank You.
posted on May 23, 2002 01:09:15 PM new
Hi andrew123s,
My recommendation to a user would be to wait for the outcome of the Buyer Complaint before filing the chargeback. The user might get their money back through our process, so it prevents the whole issue of double-dipping that I mentioned.
Most card companies allow 60 days for the person holding the card to file a chargeback.
Hi ltlcrafty1,
We notate the account (for multiple complaints about merchandise quality) because it will create a review of the person's account that has the complaints. It may even lead to removal from PayPal.
"#1 - You have said that your buyer complaint policy does not cover 'quality of goods' issues. If I know my complaint is for quality of goods, I know my claim will automatically be rejected by paypal - So what's your point? How could the person be restricted for 'double-dipping' if your policy doesn't cover claims for quality of goods? You're not going to refund the money to them. "
No, our process does not cover merchandise quality. But the party should still file the complaint against the seller, even if doesn't guarantee recovery.It also shows that the party took steps to at least work on the issue before doing the chargeback. It also lets us see the history of the seller in question.
No, your advice is not overly helpful to the user. If the buyer files a claim of non-delivery, and they recover through us AND file a chargeback, they are getting credit twice. This will probably lead to a restriction because they have been credited twice.
If the customer above had gone through on your advice, I can guarantee that they would have had issues. I advised them of all of their options AND told them what the best option is. Your first response to everything is to have users just file a chargeback. Our User Agreement DOES specify that a buyer must file a Buyer Complaint before doing so, so your information could potentially create issues for the other party.
The party above DID get their refund because the seller contacted us saying it was ok to refund the user (this would require that the party have money in their account).
Yes, I do try to make sure the interests of PayPal are presented. I also try to make sure that the users are aware of how to use the service as a customer advocate.
I don't always have the time to respond to each of your posts, as they are mostly speculative/critical of PayPal in general. I can't respond to your perception on things at all times because I do have other cases to assist with.
Most of the information you are seeking is easily found in our User Agreement.
Thank you for taking the time to try to answer my questions. Just to clairify a couple of points...
Your response included: "...No, your advice is not overly helpful to the user. If the buyer files A CLAIM OF NON-DELIVERY, and they recover through us AND file a chargeback, they are getting credit twice. This will probably lead to a restriction because they have been credited twice."
And I'll repeat what I said before, my advice was to a buyer with a QUALITY OF GOODS issue. I understand that this particular issue has been resolved, but we're talking about 2 different kinds of issues here. I specifically noted the difference between 'non-delivery' and 'quality of goods'.
Re: "I don't always have the time to respond to each of your posts, as they are mostly speculative/critical of PayPal in general. I can't respond to your perception on things at all times because I do have other cases to assist with.
Most of the information you are seeking is easily found in our User Agreement."
The other post in partiuclar that I asked about is very specific - it is not speculative. It does not have to do with my perception on things, and the information I am seeking is one single question... WHERE in the User Agreement does it state that a user cannot close a restriced account?
You're saying I can 'easily find' the answer in the User Agreement... Just tell me where. PLEASE DO NOT CUT-N-PASTE THE PORTION OF THE USER AGREEMENT ABOUT CLOSING AND RESTRICTING ACCOUNTS, because you and I and everyone else already knows it's not there.
In fact, the user agreement states just the opposite by saying "...you may close your account AT ANY TIME..." and there is NO provision stating that a user is not allowed to close an account that is restriced. But if you're still going to insist that I can find it in the user agreement, my question is... WHERE?
posted on May 24, 2002 05:28:37 PM new
Damon - Hello? This is exactly what I'm talking about! This is why people get 'combative', and this is why people are so critical. You're hope is that I'll just get tired of asking, and go away. If I keep pestering you, eventually you'll copy'n'paste the same portion of the user agreement that you have in the past - (because then it APPEARS that you're trying to help) but that doesn't answer my question!
You've got to realize by now that, although you get away with it most of the time, 'skating around' a customers question isn't going to work every time. This is just another example of PayPal proving it has NO IDEA what the words "Customer Service" mean.
