dealerjim
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posted on December 16, 2001 04:02:53 AM new
"Attention all scam artists". Did you know that you can open up multiple PayPal accounts, open up bogus auctions, and then have PayPal as your only payment option. To do this, make sure you perform a few legitimate auctions so you can get some good feedback.(That way the future buyers will think that you are O.K.) Then you can start your bogus auctions. When the unsuspecting customer sends payment to your first account you can immediately send the funds to your other account and never send the goods. The customer will go through our Buyer Complaint Process and then we will pretend to investigate for 30 days (that will give you enough time to transfer the funds into the account of your choice) and then we'll tell them that you no longer have any money in your first account. We will then protect your identity so the customer cant find out who you are. "Hows that for service" Just think what you could do with these extra funds--Take a Vegas trip, Do some home renovations, send your children to college, invest in our upcoming IPO, the uses are infinite. Since we make our money off you as a "seller", we are not concerned about the unsuspecting customers protection. If you act now we will even credit $5 to each of your accounts to seed your endeavor. Your Best Friend, PayPal
This particular scenario happened to me and now PayPal has lost yet another loyal customer.
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Coonr
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posted on December 16, 2001 06:07:36 AM new
Perhaps you should read http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nf/20011212/bs/15250_1.html
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vvalhalla
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posted on December 16, 2001 07:30:47 AM new
Nice article
but
Paypal accounts are not free
&
buyers are protected from fraud only if paypal can get the $ back.
Gotta love reading an article written by someone who hasn't connected the dots, simply vomiting the words of another source.
dendude
[ edited by vvalhalla on Dec 16, 2001 07:32 AM ]
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dealerjim
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posted on December 17, 2001 11:19:24 PM new
If I'm not mistaken theres another post here that says Coonr works for PayPal anyway. It's probably just Damon under a different username
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stopwhining
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posted on December 18, 2001 07:01:57 AM new
ebay offers insurance for any one who has been scammed on their site,have you looked into it?
ebay is really a bigger culprit for allowing such seller to register and run bogus auctions.
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paypaldamon
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posted on December 18, 2001 02:32:07 PM new
Hi dealerjim,
Coonr is not a PayPal employee. I have also advised you of our policy on posting. I have also advised you:
a) what the Buyer Complaint Process is, as well as the limitations of the process
b) what you will need to do if you want to go after the seller
Could this bad party possibly have defrauded you through any medium (cash,check, money order)?
Yes.
Your issue is with the seller.
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dealerjim
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posted on December 19, 2001 01:57:55 AM new
If I had only used a credit card to pay for that auction I could've had the money charged back so PayPal could've eaten the entire charge. Then maybe they would go after the fraudulent seller, but as long as it doesn't cost them anything they're not worried about it. ATTENTION ALL PAYPAL USERS: Never pay for anything using your PayPal account balance. You are not protected and can't chargeback the sale if you never receive what you paid for. At least if you use a credit card you can chargeback the entire cost and let PayPal eat the loss instead of you. Thats the only way PayPal will do anything about these frauds.
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stopwhining
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posted on December 19, 2001 06:39:06 AM new
all it takes is one incident for most of us to realise this person to person e commerce has major flaws-that we never get to examine the merchandise,we dont even know if the seller has the merchandise when he lists the item for sale,most sellers operate out of their home and have no d&b rating,no business credential except for feedback.
when it does not work out,there is really not much which can be done .
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dealerjim
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posted on December 22, 2001 12:37:20 AM new
That is really sad when you think of the potential volume of business that can be done over the internet.
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stopwhining
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posted on December 22, 2001 08:32:12 AM new
there will be more internet business but it will be different-buy from legitimate sellers who have good business and credit credential such as storefront,commercial checking account,business incorporated etc.
of course you will have to pay for all that,the choice is yours-some folks like to go to flea market and take their chances,some folks go to malls and buy from established stores,you can do both in cyberspace.when you buy from individual,you know they dont have good record keeping,good storage and deep pocket,so you take your chances.
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TMMamoru
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posted on January 3, 2002 10:56:04 PM new
"It also protects merchants who follow PayPal rules concerning where to send merchandise. The company reimburses those who get caught in fraudulent transactions -- something most credit card companies don't do."
Wow. Either this reporter is just making things up, or someone at PayPal is pulling lies out of their asses to try to sucker more people in.
I don't know a single, respectable credit card company in the US that doesn't have a policy against fraud, stolen cards, undelivered goods, etc.
PayPal has absolutly no guarantees. And no protection to anyone who's actually used the program to send money. Hell, it even spells that out in the TOS.
If you send money to a crook, PayPal gives them a leisurely 30-60 days to take the money out of his PayPal account, and into his bank. Then they claim to be able to do nothing about it, since there is no longer money in a PayPal account to recover.
Some protection policy.
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paypaldamon
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posted on January 3, 2002 11:59:58 PM new
Hi TMMamoru,
Any party that accepts credit cards accepts chargeback liabilty when a problem is reported. I think you are confusing chargeback liability with what credit card companies allow (chargebacks).
Our Seller Protection Program will release liability for certain kinds of chargebacks (outlined in our terms of use) when the user follows the exact steps.
Chargeback liability is not exclusive to PayPal, and I would invite you to check the terms of service for other methods of accepting credit cards (merchant accounts, other e-payment providers,etc)---You will find that recipients of chargebacks are responsible for them.
Our Buyer Complaint Process, which you are also mentioning, does not guarantee recovery from a seller. Users do need to use some discretion when sending payment to another party through any medium (cash,check,money order,etc.), as none of these will guarantee delivery from a bad seller either.
PayPal is a payment service. We can't be responsible for actions taken by individual parties. The sender of a payment is ultimately responsible for what they bid on, the party they pay, and what avenues of recourse they want to pursue if a party does not come through as promised.
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GU1HToM
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posted on January 4, 2002 06:22:03 AM new
Damon
So by your previous statement please let us know how PAYPAL is better or even an improvement over other payment methods?
That is the point.
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stopwhining
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posted on January 4, 2002 09:57:43 AM new
paypal is an alternative to having your own merchant account to accept credit cards.
many sellers do not sell enough to justify the expense of having a merchant account.
seller can always ask for check or money order or bidpay or billpoint.
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paypaldamon
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posted on January 4, 2002 11:09:41 AM new
Hi,
We are only service (that I am aware of) offering a way to eliminate chargeback liability. In addition, merchant accounts traditionally have monthly fees, terminal fees (if applicable), and possibly a reserve for chargebacks.
Our SECURITY CENTER has tips on how to avoid issues with a seller. Problems with sellers boil down to an individual action taken by a party, which no company can be responsible for.
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TMMamoru
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posted on January 4, 2002 12:10:45 PM new
Yet PayPal continues to claim themselves to be a safe, secure method of payment. They continue to advertize fraud protection.
(I wonder how many new users have decided to finally sign up for PayPal based on the LIES in that little "news" story?)
However, you claim it to be no safer than sending a cash or check in the mail?
Yet the company continues to claim both to be true?
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paypaldamon
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posted on January 4, 2002 12:27:09 PM new
Hi TMMamoru,
Would sending a payment through any of those methods(check/money order) guarantee delivery from a seller?
No.
Our Buyer Complaint Process offers limited protection. Our Seller Protection Program offers limited protection for credit card chargebacks (claims of non-delivery/credit card fraud)---these items are explained in our terms of use. Our security tips also advise buyers/sellers how to avoid potential trouble.
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GU1HToM
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posted on January 4, 2002 01:12:57 PM new
Hi,
"We are only service (that I am aware of) offering a way to eliminate chargeback liability. In addition, merchant accounts traditionally have monthly fees, terminal fees (if applicable), and possibly a reserve for chargebacks."
Correct me if I am wrong here but if a buyer pays thru PAYPAL using their Credit Card & they then have their Credit Card company reverse the charge PAYPAL will then pull that money from the seller. Even if the seller had followed all the rules stated including delivery signiture. At what point would PAYPAL stand up & fight for the seller to not let this happen?
As for Merchant Account Fees vs PAYPAL fees
just under $24000 was processed for my co thru PAYPAL last year at a cost of $560.
at the lower PREMIER rate which I no longer qualify for because I do not list regularly on ebay. At the new (3%) rate it would cost me $800.
With the merchant account I now have the same amount with the same number of transactions would have cost $650.00
Now even after I add in the setup costs of $270 in the long run it will be cheaper than PAYPAL.
"Our SECURITY CENTER has tips on how to avoid issues with a seller. Problems with sellers boil down to an individual action taken by a party, which no company can be responsible for."
If no company can be responsible for it than how can you protect one or both of the parties involved thru your buyer protection process?
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dealerjim
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posted on January 6, 2002 01:15:10 AM new
Wow, I guess Damon didn't have a rebuttal for that post. As a matter of fact, it would be safer to send a money order or cashiers check than to use PayPal. At least you would have the person's name and address. When you pay using PayPal, you are paying a faceless stranger offering no personal information.
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askdaruma
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posted on January 6, 2002 07:06:28 AM new
one would expect paypal fee to be higher for the convenience of accepting credit cards for small sellers without long term commitment,one way to reduce paypal fee is to use their debit card with 1 1/2% cash rebate.
but in order to get that rebate,one has to state on ebay item description that one only accept paypal.with checkout becoming more common,i am not sure this is a good idea.
also another factor is of the risk paypal is taking by accepting the charges,and later possible chargebacks.
ever wonder why your local loan sharks charge interate rate so much higher than bank prime rate,say 36 % when prime is 7%.
prime is at under 5 % the last time i checked,i doubt if shark loan rate has come down at all.
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dealerjim
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posted on January 19, 2002 12:42:15 AM new
Ever wonder how PayPal is still in business??? I do everyday.
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Coonr
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posted on January 19, 2002 04:25:53 AM new
At least you would have the person's name and address. When you pay using PayPal, you are paying a faceless stranger offering no personal information.
To send any money, by any means without knowing who you are sending it to is just plain stupid!
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Coonr
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posted on January 19, 2002 04:27:33 AM new
Ever wonder how PayPal is still in business???
Not only that, but 12,000,000+ and growing.
[ edited by Coonr on Jan 19, 2002 04:28 AM ]
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MrBusinessMan
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posted on January 19, 2002 04:48:07 PM new
PayPal did a reversal on a $500 transaction of mine without even requiring the buyer to do a chargeback through the bank. And this was TWO DAYS AFTER I provided irrefutable proof to PayPal that the buyer had perpetrated a fraud.
With PayPal there is no protection for buyer OR seller. Whichever party ends up on the successful side of the scam is the "protected" party.
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dealerjim
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posted on February 12, 2002 01:23:49 PM new
Protection, PayPal? ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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mrfoxy76
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posted on February 12, 2002 07:59:40 PM new
hopefully some day someone will do such a massive rip off with paypal that they actually might wake up and smell the coffee because the opportunity is out there waiting.
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fnewbrough
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posted on February 18, 2002 08:24:16 PM new
Paypal can make excuses all day long but it still doesn't explain why all new users and sellers aren't told from the get-go of their risk from fraud. Every transaction should be accompanied by a checklist and every transaction involving a credit card should have to be manually accepted by an individual and during the process of the manual accept they should have to read and accept a list of known risks. Credit card fraud is Paypal's biggest problem and credit cards represent over 50% of Paypal's transactions. How can any company who claims to want to reduce chargebacks and credit card fraud fail to make a point of alerting users of this very HIGH risk. I just don't understand it. Well, maybe I do, they want to increase the number of users, any users and since now they have a more liberal policy on restricting accounts they can earn some cash on the backs of their victimized users.
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TMMamoru
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posted on February 20, 2002 02:25:47 PM new
"Paypal can make excuses all day long but it still doesn't explain why all new users and sellers aren't told from the get-go of their risk from fraud."
What is there to explain? PayPal won't do it, because they know that posting a big "use at your own risk- we guarantee nothing!" on every transfer would scare away buisness.
No, they're quite happy to hide behind their flashy claims of "Secure!" "Safe!" And their non-existant "Buyer protections!" Once you have a problem, it's aleady too late...
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dealerjim
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posted on March 28, 2002 07:35:10 PM new
They will eventually learn to value their customers but most likely it will be too late by the time they do. I wonder if we can have two Enron's in less than a year? LOL!!!
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dealerjim
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posted on June 5, 2002 11:05:03 PM new
LOL!
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