arurenusan
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posted on December 10, 2001 04:04:50 PM new
I have just been scammed by a seller for $608.50. The seller committed a U.S. FELONY by selling me pirated software, which he claims was genuine. I verified the authenticity of the software with the original maker, and officials of the company confirmed that the product I purchased are both illegal and non-working. This to me is the same as non-receipt of the product. I tried numerous times contacting the felon for a full refund, but to no avail as he now ignores me. This felon is continuing to sell the pirated software on Ebay at http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=visteoninc&include=0&since=30&sort=3&rows=200
I have warned all the winners of the auction already. When I filed a complaint via PayPal's Buyer Complaint Form, this is what I got in reply:
"PayPal has concluded the investigation of your Buyer Complaint. Case Number:259556 Transaction Date: 11/24/2001 4:54:00 PM Transaction Amount: $608.50 Seller's Email: [email protected] Seller's Name: Michael Bruhl PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy does not apply to disputes about the attributes or quality of goods received. As a result, we cannot reverse the transaction or issue a refund. We encourage you to continue to work directly with the seller for an amicable resolution. PayPal does not tolerate fraud or illegal activities."
PayPal suggests I contact the felon, even though I have told them specifically that the felon is not responding and has not responded since he took my money. Furthermore, PayPal makes an ironic statement -- "PayPal does not tolerate fraud or illegal activities". What attributes of PIRATED SOFTWARE, that does not work, sold to an unsuspecting consumer is not a fraud? By not recognizing that this felon has committed fraud against an innocent consumer, PAYPAL IS HARBORING CRIMINALS AND THEIR ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES.
Many of us may ask, why are there no regulations against PayPal? Because PayPal is privately held (LLC), they are not subject to the same federal regulations as banks. This means that PayPal can declare bankruptcy and no one will ever know what happens to your money.
I want to encourage legitimate banks to come into PayPal's space. They are the natural heirs of e-currency and they can definitely offer customers better support and fraud protection. PayPal's technology was put together by an inexperience 23 year old script kiddy who has no knowledge of real programming. That is why they were hacked. That is why many of the members had their accounts frozen. We need a real company that is FDIC insured to take over this space.
I want to warn the entire auction community to avoid PayPal. I have never been more upset at a company for incompetence and negligence.
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dealerjim
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posted on December 11, 2001 02:30:59 AM new
I agree 100%. PayPal followers will eventually be sorry they didn't drop their account. Don't say I never told you so.....
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paypaldamon
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posted on December 11, 2001 11:15:56 AM new
Hi,
"I have just been scammed by a seller for $608.50"
This is an issue with the seller. We acted in accordance with our terms of use re: merchandise quality disputes. You will now need to seek recourse through other channels.
I would also advise that we have never been hacked.
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dealerjim
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posted on December 11, 2001 11:48:15 AM new
PayPal knows where that $608.50 went but they will make sure and keep it confidential.
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GU1HToM
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posted on December 11, 2001 11:56:49 AM new
Unfortunately Damons reply may have just put a big bullseye on PAYPAL for hackers....
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arurenusan
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posted on December 11, 2001 12:02:02 PM new
I believe about a year or so ago, hackers did break into PayPal. I remember hearing this in the news on TV and from a few friends who warned me not to sign up with PayPal. I am trying to get links to back this up. I don't know whether PayPal has removed all the Internet links to this shameful incident. Someone please provide a link to the story either to x.com or palpal. Thanks.
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paypaldamon
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posted on December 11, 2001 12:05:39 PM new
Hi,
PayPal has never been hacked. The statement is incorrect. Please point me to the news story link.
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arurenusan
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posted on December 11, 2001 12:47:07 PM new
Have PayPal cleaned up all the Internet links to this incident? I thought I heard that hackers stole credit card information via PayPal or duplicate sites. Maybe it was the same incident as when PayPal locked up a lot of user's accounts due to fraud. I might have confused it.
However, note that PayPal is not locking up the felon's account. This seller [email protected] is a felon, as defined by U.S. Law for selling pirated software to unsuspecting consumers. Why is that? Why do you choose to harbor criminals and their illegal activities? Why have you failed to conduct your investigation? Why do you claim you have fraud protection, when selling illegal software is FRAUD, yet you turn a blind eye on these transaction when you are the only witness? Why?
When you say you don't care what the seller sends to a buyer, these harsh words should be reserved for incidents such as unsatisfactorily goods. This case is different. This case involves a FEDERAL FELONY. And PayPal is the only witness to the felon stealing my money. Yet you turn a blind eye and collect your 2.9% fee without even an investigation. By the time you get to your senses and investigate, the felon would have taken all his money out, and you will tell me like you've told all the others "you are due a refund since the seller defrauded you and is in violation of a U.S. felony charge. However, he has no money left in his account, so we cannot refund you. Good bye."
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dealerjim
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posted on December 11, 2001 03:42:23 PM new
PayPal has shown that they would rather have fraudulent members rather than honest ones. They wish to protect the fraudulent party in every case I've seen. If thats the case than before long PayPal will be nothing but a buch of criminals because PayPal is the only company who protects them. Their motto should be. PAYPAL, THE CRIMINALS BEST FREIND!!! They have lost me as a member but I bet the jerk who stole my money is still racking up $$$ in one of his many PayPal accounts. He is most likely a very happy customer.
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arurenusan
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posted on December 11, 2001 04:33:50 PM new
"PAYPAL - THE CRIMINAL'S BEST FRIEND"
As funny as it may sound, but it's true. Oh it's true. In the sense that there is no real fraud protection, and they don't check the seller's identity thoroughly. Until they let me know where my money is, I believe they are a conduit, be it non-intentional, for criminals and their illegal activities.
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Coonr
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posted on December 11, 2001 09:52:00 PM new
Hi arurenusan,
Have you contacted the authorities? I dont think your seller is a felon until convicted in a legitimate court.
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dealerjim
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posted on December 11, 2001 09:56:53 PM new
coonr
Now why would he do that?LOL Do you just assume that the necessary steps weren't taken? Its kind of hard for the authorities to reach a seller who used a false name and/or email address. PayPal knows this persons real name and where the money went and won't help the law abiding member. Its as simple as that.
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Coonr
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posted on December 11, 2001 10:10:30 PM new
I have seen numerous posts where PayPal has stated they will and do coopereate with law enforcement authorities. I do not assume anything, I just asked the question.
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club1man
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posted on December 11, 2001 11:13:26 PM new
Coonr ask them about the two supoena's they recieved from a Washington state sheriff's office that I was told they ignored.
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dealerjim
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posted on December 11, 2001 11:14:14 PM new
coonr
Do you see where it is cost effective to throw away $2000 to get back $600? Even if they find the fraud your not likely to get your money back. The matter at hand is simple--PayPal is not regulated and has no interest in solving these problems. All of these people who have been scammed only asked that PayPal investigate the case for them. After all, they were defrauded by a PayPal customer. Don't you think these people have a right to know where their money went without dipping into their savings. PayPal has this information and whether or not the suspected criminal was guilty or not you would think they would try to get the problem resolved to keep from losing customers. Maybe I'm crazy but it just seems like bad business.
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arurenusan
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posted on December 11, 2001 11:16:53 PM new
but but but...paypaldamon told me that they will comply with the authorities if i smack down $2000 for the subpoena. you mean to tell me that i risk not only losing my $608.50, but an additional $2000???  i thought paypal was my pal!
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arurenusan
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posted on December 11, 2001 11:32:37 PM new
by the way, paypal treats its members like children. they told me that the incident where the seller sold me pirated software, while committing a U.S. felony, is an incident related to "quality of merchandise". they have yet to recognize it as fraud. i felt like i was treated as such a kid. what an insult. tell that to an adult!
tell that to an adult and they will tell you: really? so when you grow up, IF you go about selling illegal software on the internet and then when the fbi catches you, you can just tell them: "but officer, paypal told me it was only a 'quality of merchandise issue'".
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ccaswell
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posted on December 12, 2001 03:47:49 AM new
arurenusan,
Ok, I've read all of these posts in all of the boards and have formed an observation.
When the link was posted to the seller, I went and looked at it. Correct me if I'm wrong but the first thing I saw was sunglasses and a 0(zero) feedback - Am I correct?
So I asked myself, why would anyone send $600.00 under those circumstances.
The only answer I can come up with is that you truely thought you money was protected by using PayPal - I guess you now realize that is not the case in this issue.
What I didn't see is your negative feedback to warn others of this seller - maybe he changed id's but I thought the feedback traveled with the id change.
Maybe I have the facts all wrong here, if so please correct me. I will continue to follow your posts because this issue is of interest to me and I wish you luck with your recovery efforts.
chc
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Coonr
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posted on December 12, 2001 04:55:13 AM new
Coonr ask them about the two supoena's they recieved from a Washington state sheriff's office that I was told they ignored.
I do not believe it. Lets see some proof. Like the Phone number and name for the contact person at the Sheriffs office. Why did the sheriff not go back to court and have them held in contempt? Furthermore, you can bet it would have been all over the news.....
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Coonr
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posted on December 12, 2001 04:58:30 AM new
All of these people who have been scammed only asked that PayPal investigate the case for them.
PayPal is not an escrow service or "protection/investigation" agency. They are a MONEY TRANSFER SERVICE.
Did you tell the to transfer money? Did they follow your instructions?
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stopwhining
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posted on December 12, 2001 08:38:31 AM new
you read these threads every day,they never blame themselves for forking money over to some stranger,now they cry MOMMA,and want someone to punish the villain.
do they ever realise if they are not trigger happy sitting in front of the pc,none of these would have happened.
they could still have that 600 dollars,1000 dollars,2600 dollars in their name,or if they use their cc,they have less debt come due.
if you cannot afford to lose,then either sit on your hands or save enough to go to a reputable store.
go to a store,thats what it is there for!!!!!!
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GU1HToM
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posted on December 12, 2001 09:25:45 AM new
So just to make sure I understand you correctly. Your basically telling everyone to not deal with anyone online...
even legitimate businesses because they may get screwed?
Regular stores just like Online businesses have the good & the bad.
Not everyone is out to rip people off.<br />
[ edited by GU1HToM on Dec 12, 2001 09:36 AM ]
[ edited by GU1HToM on Dec 12, 2001 09:37 AM ]
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arurenusan
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posted on December 12, 2001 11:08:27 AM new
look, some of these guys are correct in their observations that i should have NOT purchased software from someone with NO feedback. that is correct. you should never purchase something from someone over $100 with NO feedback. i am six times stupid by paying that guy $600.
but i thought paypal was my pal and really offered buyer's protection. i guess i am wrong. if you want real protection, think twice of paypal, and use an escrow service. because in cases of fraud, paypal can always run you around by calling fraud a "quality of merchandise" issue. so don't make the same mistake.
-- arurenu
"you mean paypal is not my pal?"
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dealerjim
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posted on December 12, 2001 01:30:23 PM new
Coonr
PayPal is not an escrow service or "protection/investigation" agency. They are a MONEY TRANSFER SERVICE.
Did you tell the to transfer money? Did they follow your instructions?
Well it looks like we've got another PayPal representative here at AW. You must be Damon's understudy. I hope all of your answers are as non-speceific as Damons are. It will only prove everyones case here that PayPal likes discredit its ex-members.
Damon,
It must be nice to finally have some help on all these boards. Coonr seems to be filling your shoes nicely. If PayPal keeps on pissing off its members, it will take a few more customer service guys to handle all the forums. Good luck Damon & Coonr, I have a feeling these forums are only going to get bigger.
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club1man
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posted on December 12, 2001 01:40:00 PM new
actually Jim I agree with you 99.44/100% of the time. But when the service in the spotlight gets lost in oblivion there won't be as much to talk about.And maybe they will.
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paypaldamon
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posted on December 12, 2001 02:38:53 PM new
Hi delaerjim,
Coonr is not a PayPal employee. Employees of the company have to identify themselves as such. They also have to get authorization to post...not doing so violates company policy.
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uaru
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posted on December 12, 2001 02:48:24 PM new
dealerjim Well it looks like we've got another PayPal representative here at AW. You must be Damon's understudy. I hope all of your answers are as non-speceific as Damons are. It will only prove everyones case here that PayPal likes discredit its ex-members.
Now that's funny coming from you dealerjim. Tell me more about discrediting with twit remarks. Inquiring minds want to know. 
Pot/Kettle/Black
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arurenusan
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posted on December 12, 2001 03:35:21 PM new
in defense of him, and as a fellow victim, i think he means to that you guys have a point of view that is quite extreme towards that of a paypal rep.
i understand that you guys have not been screwed, and thus feel that everyone else who has been, are nothing more than whiners. maybe we are, but you don't have to heed our warnings.
in fact, i hope no one else has to go through what i've gone through. it is insanely maddening...
-- arurenu
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trai
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posted on December 12, 2001 04:49:02 PM new
Hmmmmmm... after reading the posts here, I just have to wonder how many people take the time to read paypals user tos.
Funny thing is that it tells you how the system works from top to bottom.
Seems like everyone wants paypal to be the middle man here. Nope, thats not the way it works.
Just like ebay or yahoo or what have you, they are only a venue.
One can blame paypal for some things, but not for every evil in the world.
paypal, billpoint etc... can only do so much.
No system is perfect, there will allways be a way for a crook to work them selfs in.
Bottom line is that user has to use some common sense and make up their own minds as to how much $$$$ they are willing to risk with a 0 feedback seller.
Mind you, one can get screwed just as fast with a high feedback seller.
Now that said, I like to point out that I do not like to see anyone get hosed by crooks.
But to blame any online service is in my books just plain insane.
Some users just have to shoulder some of the blame on their own lack of knowledge.
And no, I do not work for any payment service.
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uaru
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posted on December 12, 2001 04:58:42 PM new
arurenusan,
I've lost money on transactions, everyone has. What I didn't do was blame someone else for my poor judgement. I didn't accuse anyone disagreeing with me as being some sort of co-conspirator either.
Here's another little tidbit you can ignore if you choose. You boldly anounce that "PayPal Harbors Criminals", yet another news story released today offers another view.
Business - Newsfactor 12/12/01 Its technological expertise is also highly regarded in the industry: the company helped the FBI (news - web sites) in a sting operation last year that rounded up 90 hackers charged with bilking thousands of people out of US$117 million over the Internet.
There's some other information in the article if you're interested, like this little contradiction of your claim that PayPal was 'hacked' but managed to remove all the links to the news stories (you were reaching way beyond your stretch on that one fella.)
All transactions happen only on the company's secure servers, located in Palo Alto, California, which cannot be accessed over the Internet and are therefore inaccessible to cyber-thieves.
[ edited by uaru on Dec 12, 2001 05:04 PM ]
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