posted on September 22, 2001 08:37:39 PM new
I sell a wiget that is from pottery barn. I got a really good deal. I keep getting ebay closing my auctions for key word spaming
They say i am key world spaming pottery barn. I think i am running into a small problem because i just started selling these items about two weeks ago. i think i am a lot lower than others selling these items and they are turning me in to ebay ...the fastes way possible .( how long does it take to close an auction for key owrd spaming and who monitors it ??) If you do a search on pottery barn there is tons( over 2000) products. In fact there are items that do not even have pottery barn logo's on them in there auctions. I have emailed ebay back and i told them that these items sell at pottery barn just like the over 2000 items listed using the word pottery barn. They emailed me back a basically told me to read the rules . They told me unless the product is offered at pottery barn or comes from pottery barn . I can not sell it . I emailed them back and told them WELL THERE's IS NO PROBLEM !!!! These items sell at pottery barn ...it's not like i am putting the word Nike in my auction
what option do i have to make them stop..
please remember before you comment there are over 2000 auctions running pottery barn items
posted on September 22, 2001 08:50:28 PM new
yeah right ???thanks for the positive imput. now you can go to bed
here's the letter from ebay
However, your listing was in violation of eBay's policies. We would like to take this opportunity to let you know what part of your listing is not permitted.
Your listing contained the following information:
POTTERY BARN
Listing your items in this way is considered "keyword spamming," which is not allowed on eBay. Keyword spamming is the practice of adding words, including brand names, which do not directly describe the item you are selling. Keyword spamming is also unfair to members who may be searching for a specific item and receive search results of listings which are not selling these items.
Methods of Key Word Spamming include, but are not limited to:
1. Extra Brand Names in Title or Item Description
2. Not Brand X, Not Brand Y
3. Improper Trademark Usage
4. Lists of "Key" Words
5. Hidden Text (White on white text, or hidden text in HTML Code)
6. Drop Down Boxes
Our guidelines regarding keyword spamming can be reviewed on this eBay policy page:
posted on September 22, 2001 09:05:12 PM new
I believe your assumption is correct that the other PB sellers have ganged up on you and reported you to SafeHarbor. No, it wasn't me! I am having the same problem, only at the other end. See my thread - Safeharbor is USELESS! Could you get picture with the PB price tag attached (price crossed out of course!) to the crock, or no pic at all? It has been my experience with ebay Customer Support that they have to rely on the VERO members to boot out the product in question, because the average CS person wouldn't know a PB crock from a crock of bullsh*t! Better yet, is there a picture from the PB catalog you could take? You could report the other sellers as non PB crocks as well, but I certainly hold no hope of getting progress on those lines. List an auction, no pic, closer to your competitors opening bid and see how that auction goes. Good luck!
posted on September 22, 2001 09:12:06 PM new
The reason i do not quote the price or show the price is that in the past 2 weeks the item has sold for more then even pottery barn sold it
You know the saying buy it on ebay for more
I list at really good prices. I am not sure i am not getting VERO. I am getting key word spaming .
I would perfer to not include the picture from pottery barn . These items sold four years ago in there cataloge
posted on September 23, 2001 07:43:35 AM new
Eastwest, you first post said that they sell these widgits at the Pottery Barn, but in your post at September 22, 2001 09:12:06 PM says that they sold in the catalog 4 years ago.
That is probably your problem. Are these in fact, REALLY the same items that were sold 4 years ago in the catalog or are they "like" the items. Do you have solid evidence that you can show in your auctions that they are old Pottery Barn Stock?
The problem with Key Word spamming is that the sellers are trying to capitalize on the Brand Name to draw people to their auctions. As soon as the bidders/customers realize that the item really isn't really something from Pottery Barn, it is easy to shoot off an email to Safeharbor, and Poof go the "look alike" auctions. In fact, other sellers probably don't get to the auctions to turn them in, the bidders inforce Keyword spamming faster and easier.
Bidders that are seeking Brand Names are very particular and don't have much patience for someone trying to ride the coattails of popularity of the brand name. They also are very, very aware of what is brand name and what is not.
If your item is better priced and of good quality, your bidders will find the item without using "Pottery Barn" in the title. Unless you can show, visibly in the auction that the item indeed is Pottery Barn, it sounds like you will have to follow the Keyword spamming rules are run the risk of getting suspended.
posted on September 23, 2001 08:14:23 AM new
Can you post a picture and the wording in your auction? If these have a PB mark or label you should be in the clear if not you are at fault. It is very simple these either came from PB or not. If not you can't list as such. If they did put proof in your auctions. It's very simple.
Joe B
posted on September 23, 2001 11:52:55 AM new
Some of you are defending ebay like their rules make sense. I learned a while ago that if one of ebay's "good sellers" wants to put competition out of business, they make a complaint to ebay and the competitor is history. I didn't believe it until it happened to me. I was selling batteries that fit specific cameras. I mentioned the cameras in my auction. I had no competition and did just fine. Then a big seller starts selling the same batteries and suddenly ebay decides that I am keyword spamming because I mentioned the camera it fits. According to them, since I am not selling the camera, I can not mention it. We went back and forth on this via email and on the phone. I asked them how I can word my auctions so that bidders will understand them. "Batteries for mystery cameras?" I asked them why there were several hundred auctions for batteries, lenses, accessories that all mentioned the cameras they fit. I kept "reporting" those other auctions, a hundred at a time and insisting the ebay close down all their accessory auctions for keyword spamming. I also kept re-posting the auctions, each time phrased differently. Eventually my competitor went away because I was selling them for half his opening bid. Coincidentally, when he went away, ebay stopped cancelling my auctions.
So you may have done absolutely nothing wrong except to compete with an ebay "buddy."
posted on September 23, 2001 12:27:04 PM new
We sell old Griswold, Wagner, etc. cast iron cookware and I read (a while back), that we could use the keyword in the DESCRIPTION, but NOT the title. When did THAT change? Sheesh, I wish eBay would keep a rule around for a while. I better watch it then, I guess. That really stinks, and while I'm at it:
Are buyers so stupid that if my title says "Wagner Cast Iron Skillet" and they did a search on Griswold, they actually think the skillet is a Griswold? Can't they read anymore? eBay sure isn't giving them much credit, or the bidders are really really dense, which is it?
posted on September 23, 2001 01:29:02 PM new
flynn, now that you mention it, what *is* the point of adding the phrase "not Griswold" to your title when you're selling a Wagner pan?
Seems to me somebody searching for a Griswold pan wants to buy a Griswold pan ... not Wagner.
Or are Griswold collectors enticed into buying the Wagner pan when it comes up in their search?
Just another oddity I've never understood.
As for eastwest's dilemma, what yisgood said. Someone (a competitor) is reporting your keyword spamming (and that's really what you're doing). Most people couldn't care less, but this person likely has a financial stake in removing your auctions.
Tone it down for awhile and try again. Be careful, though. I don't know how many warnings they'll give you, but they may eventually NARU you if you push it.
posted on September 23, 2001 01:42:22 PM new
Well - My hubby collects both Griswold and Wagner, as a matter of fact they merged in the 50's, so technically they are the same company.
Anyway, if my DH is doing a search for Griswold and an interesting Wagner listing pops up, he'll look at it and sometimes bid.
THAT'S when it's useful, what I don't get is the buyers that whine about having to wade through listings that don't pertain to what they are searching for.
DUH, do ANY search on eBay and you'll get SOMETHING you're not looking for.
posted on September 23, 2001 02:35:10 PM new
Angela- in that one instance maybe it's not so bad, but the rules are in place because in some categories the keyword spam is so bad that no one would be able to find anything they wanted otherwise.
Consider the clothing categories- many shoppers are loyal customers of one brand (say Calvin Klein.) When sellers put the name of every designer they can think of into their listings, even if the auction in question is unrelated to those designers, the person shopping for calvin klein may well give up in disgust before even finding one actual calvin klein item they want to bid on. Not everyone needs or wants that kind of "help" when they shop- it can be quite irritating to click on a sweatshirt that's "like Calvin Klein" only to find that it's an el-cheapo Old Navy.
posted on September 23, 2001 02:41:56 PM new
I can certainly understand the frustration in the scenario you explain, but when it is clearly stated in the title the item is XXX, it's quite obvious the seller has used a keyword in the listing IF it's not in the title, correct?
So, if a buyer is searching for Calvin Klein jeans and they come upon a listing when searching for Calvin Klein jeans and get a title that says Gitano jeans, they don't have to click on it right? I just don't understand why we have to babysit bidders so much.
Personally, I'm rather insulted that eBay would think me so stupid!
posted on September 23, 2001 02:55:14 PM newSo, if a buyer is searching for Calvin Klein jeans and they come upon a listing when searching for Calvin Klein jeans and get a title that says Gitano jeans, they don't have to click on it right?
If eBay allowed keyword spamming, someone looking for genuine Calvins wouldn't be able to find them. There would be a hundred non-Calvins for every Calvin which showed up in a search for "Calvin Klein jeans". The others wouldn't be Gitanos either. They would be listings by unsavory sellers trying to troll lesser branded product in front of buyers trying to find a desired brand.
Maybe you had to see the original Monte Python skit where the definition of spam came from. The speaker is drowned out by a whole bunch of people spouting "spam spam spam spam".
posted on September 23, 2001 02:59:40 PM new
I would much rather go to a flea market that only sold what I'm looking for too, but that ain't gonna happen.
I used to collect vintage valentines and every January the listings for Collectibles:Holiday:Valentine Days would skyrocket to include everything from valentine related Beanie Babies to that perfect "Valentine" gift. Yeah, I got sick of it, and complained to eBay to no avail, so I just had to learn to wade through all the crap, maybe others should learn to do the same.
Life isn't perfect and September 11th should have proved that.
posted on September 23, 2001 04:51:27 PM new
Well i am waiting to hear back .And prepairing myself so some silly answer. I have gone threw almost all 2000 listings of PB items and come to the conclusion . That i must be getting centered out by someone on ebay ...and i have no idea
Out of the 2000 listing over 687 do not have anything in the listing that says there from pottery barn...Some even say there like the ones at pottery barn ...So i am marking this all down and prepair my case
posted on September 23, 2001 07:21:49 PM new
Eastwest
You never really answered the question about your items being from the Pottery Barn (or perhaps like something they had in their catalog) So, I will ask you directly... Are the items you are selling with Pottery Barn REALLY from the Pottery Barn?
I've looked through your listings and found that in the past, you have listed several different items that have "Pottery Barn" in the title, but no reference to the store in the descriptions. Most of the time you simple state "WE ARE THE DIRECT IMPORTER." You listed 5 different items with that brand name in the title. Are all Five from a catalog four years ago???
Well, if you are the direct Importer, than Pottery Barn is not, and the item is not a Pottery Barn item. You are misleading the bidders with your titles and Yes, according to eBay's rules, you are Keyword Spamming.
Many folks in this thread have objected to eBay's rules on this subject, and that it their right. But, it is eBay's sandbox and if we want to play in it, we have to follow the rules.
Honestly, you have to admit that the items get a lot more attention if you put in the words "Pottery Barn" rather than "imported wood widgit" and that is precisely why sellers use keyword spamming. It draws more attention to your auction because of our desire to buy brand name items.
People searching for brand names are not fooled, and are not suckered by lines like "I know this isn't brand XXX, but it looks so much like it" or "It would fit right in with brand XXX, so I listed it this way"
Whether it is bidders or other sellers turning you in, the fact is, that unless your item really is the REAL THING, you shouldn't use that name in the title.
posted on September 23, 2001 09:23:31 PM new
Yes these items are pottery barn items. These are over-runs from Indonesia.
Actually I have two things that are really neat
1) They are over-runs--when you go to Indonesia and buy. It is no uncommon that both pottery barn and pier one buy in large amounts and I am talking large amounts. If say they order 5000 and only take 4500. The supply makes so little off the item. Basically pottery barn will work the carver down to the lowest price. Then promise him large orders, but they do not realize it's usually one large order and that's it. It is also very common for them to cancel or not take the whole amount. So as a buyer I can go to the same place pottery barn goes and buy the product as well, in the packages and everything. This is no different then from discount stores
2) My agent is good friends with the agents for ikea, pier one, pottery barn, and a couple others from England. I can buy a lot of over runs , no seconds. I have a lot of Masks that just came in that you will find pottery barn , and they have the stickers on the back that say pottery barn. I chose to take them of when wholesaling them, makes sense i want to promote my company when wholesaling.
I actually went so far as to buy a little of the product they still had in there cataloge at there store( in the stor). The manager gave we a really good deal, some were the same items i had tons of. My wife thought i was nuts to buy somthing i already had. I took it home and compared the packaging to the samples i had from indonesia. I then returned to indoneisa 4 mouths later and asked more questions. Then i purchased and stated listing them ...I then searched and noticed that there were a lot of sellers in that sections who were selling the same (over runs) I watched and they seem to be doing well. This is no different then Victoria Secret or many other name brands. Try doing a search on Victoria Secret there are tons of companies selling clothing that does not come from the company
posted on September 23, 2001 09:29:59 PM new
My thought is, if it says pottery barn on it then you should be able to sell it as a pottery barn item. Whether you bought it from the store or from PB's vendor in Indonesia.
But: I chose to take [PB stickers] off when wholesaling them, makes sense i want to promote my company when wholesaling.
Then, I don't think you can call it a pottery barn item. Without the sticker, it could be any sort of knockoff or lookalike.
posted on September 23, 2001 09:42:10 PM new
Then, I don't think you can call it a pottery barn item. Without the sticker, it could be any sort of knockoff or look alike.
That's the fine line ...You can do tons of searches and Tons of companies are selling products from companies.
I chose to take the stickers off , but that does not mean it's not real. We are mainly a wholesale company, if you went to indonesia you would fall over with carvers carving other carvers designs. I have personally gone and had my designs copied, it's just how it works over there ( it's a whole different world). They will look you in the face tell you they will not sell to any other companys when you drop 10,000 dollars. You will come back the next day and see your design be loaded onto a truck to florida. With your company stickers on there boxes ??
posted on September 24, 2001 08:48:39 AM new
It does seem a bit contradictory that you would advertise in your listing that it is Pottery Barn, then remove the Pottery Barn sticker. Either you want bidders/buyers to know that its Pottery Barn or not.
I reviewed a couple of your "Pottery Barn" listings, and if I were eBay, I would have cancelled them for keyword spamming too. You don't explain (in your listing) how items that you claim to be a "direct importer" of are also "Pottery Barn". It appears (by looking at the auctions and not reading what you said here) as if you are just slapping the term "Pottery Barn" in the title to attract Pottery Barn customers.
You didn't get them from Pottery Barn,
They don't currently sell at Pottery Barn,
they were never even technically owned by Pottery Barn... I would say you're walking on a fine line. The items seem to sell well on their own merit, why not just remove "Pottery Barn" from the title or explain in greater detail, within the listing, how you acquired these items.
posted on September 24, 2001 09:18:38 AM new
Wouldn't that be the same as cutting the tags out of say Liz Claiborne clothing? You couldn't say it was Liz unless the tags were there. If you advertised the item as Liz, but there was no proof as such, then not only would eBay take issue with it, but Liz Clairborne would as well.
This is the type of behavior that gives good sellers a bad name.
posted on September 24, 2001 09:19:27 AM new
Sorry you may have missed the part. We are mainly a wholesale company. This is why we remove the stickers. It is a seperate issue
The removing of labels alos is not uncommon manny times this is done so that a product will not be taken back to a store for a refund of the higher value. Again this is no different then the labels that are removed from stock of Vitoria Secret, or Gap or many other companies. Again the product is new . Yes I have beefed up my T.O.S to include comments about Pottery Barn. Yuo are correct the product does sell well on it's own but like any company you try other area's. This was an area we tested and found worked well for us.
Again i want to comment that i have personally purchased item's like Vitoria secret for the wife on ebay .Out of the over 1000's of listing all are from Victoria Secret but are not directly from the store. The lapels are removed , so the item is not returned to the store
Again i have purchased other items in the same fashion, lapels are removed so they are not returned to the store for refunds
posted on September 24, 2001 09:51:53 AM new
Labels are usually slashed in two, but not removed all together. At least that has been my experience when shopping at outlets and "off-price" stores.
posted on September 24, 2001 10:08:44 AM new
Eastwest,
Could you leave the sticker on but put a black line thru the name so that it could not be returned to a store? I am thinking of a black Sharpie marker here.
posted on September 24, 2001 10:16:54 AM new
hay now that's an idea...markers
But the issue still comes down to grapping an item off the shelf that is for wholesale and putting the lapel back on it then hitting it with a marker...Guess that's what i am going to have to do..
As for lapels ...no i have has them come with the lapels before
