napcruz
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posted on October 15, 2000 10:53:07 PM new
Will bidders be turned off by a disclaimer in your TOS: I reserve the right not to sell if ebay or any functionality of ebay is down when my auction ends?
Can I get in trouble for this with ebay if the buyer is persistent?
Nap Cruz
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atozbiz
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:04:43 PM new
The auction is usually automatically extend for 24hrs if you auction ends when ebay malfunction.
However the problem is sometime only part of ebay malfunction. Some people would have problem bidding on the item and others have no problem at all.
If you have a reseve and the reseve is met you are obligated to sell when the auction ends.
If the reserve is not met, you are not obligated to sell.
If you don't have a reserve and someone bid on it already you are obligated to sell when the auction ends.
I prefer to list with a reserve then I would be less afftected by ebay malfunction. Worst that can happen is I don't sell and I relist.
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lotsafuzz
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:06:43 PM new
I believe that ebay only extends auctions if the WHOLE site is down for over 2 hours.
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uaru
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:08:30 PM new
Tricky situation. Clearly it isn't in your best interest to sell when the item isn't available for bids during the closing minutes. If I bid a ridiculous low amount and won because eBay went down and the seller insisted on relisting I'm going to understand... not everyone is as reasonable as me, you should meet my wife.
The idea of including more terms in the TOS isn't attractive either. Negative terms in the TOS isn't what makes an attractive listing. I think in the same situation I'd explain to the buyer why I'm relisting the item and hope that I won't be dealing with my wife.
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Glenda
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:11:40 PM new
For any hard outage lasting two or more hours, eBay will automatically extend listings for 24 hours and automatically credit all associated fees for affected listings.
What is a Hard Outage?
A hard outage occurs when no one can bid as a result of unscheduled system downtime.
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Zazzie
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:17:22 PM new
A Hard Outage is how long it takes your skull to crack when bashing it against your keyboard when Ebay is out.
Ebay has determined that it takes two hours to crack one hard skull = Hard Outage
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kellyb1
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:20:21 PM new
The entire ebay site has to be down for a certain amount of time before all auctions are extended 24 hours. I have had alot of auctions close while ebay was down for a short period of time and they didn't get extended.
I think you might have problems with putting that in your TOS. Ebay policy states that once an auction has ended with a winning bid the seller must complete the transaction or face suspension. Any TOS that tries to change ebay rules is not permitted.
It might also be considered fraud if you told a winning bidder that you didn't have to sell the item to them because in the last few minutes of the auction the site went down and no one could bid against the standing bid in the final seconds, when their bid was placed 6 days earlier.
I think it would open a whole can of worms that you wouldn't want to deal with.
It's better to start the bidding at a higher min. or put a reserve on the item.
just my 2 cents.
Kelly
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napcruz
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:23:37 PM new
Hard Outage - we really haven't had any extended outage; the site is up and down up and down. So we can't claim the 2 hour period.
If I'm a bidder and I'm having trouble getting in; I'll just come back later and sometime that's is way later. The site is up, but the auction has ended.
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napcruz
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:32:33 PM new
uaru - Thanks for being understanding, I don't like the negativity either in TOS, but sometimes us sellers need some protection from outages.
Kelly - I agree, but will ebay suspend someone for something that is their fault?
[ edited by napcruz on Oct 15, 2000 11:34 PM ]
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Zazzie
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:33:08 PM new
I just did a search using the words "ebay outage" and came up with quite a few auctions that stated that they reserved the right not to sell if the auction ended during a period of time that Ebay was not accessible for any reason.
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Glenda
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:34:54 PM new
My previous message was a quote from eBay's System Outage page. It does not say "the entire site has to be down." A hard outage is when nobody can bid for 2 hours.
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kellyb1
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:41:54 PM new
I think they would, since they state in their policy that ebay has to be down for a min. time frame before they will extend auctions. This implies that if the auctions don't get extended, then all of ebay's rules apply.
I think they would send a warning to seller that had this in their TOS. But if they have a bidder file a complaint that the seller hasn't completed the transaction, and that bidder sends a complaint to the Internet Fruad Complaint Center, www.ifccfbi.gov run in part by the FBI, the seller might be looking at charges of Fraud.
In most court cases, using a defense of, "gee I didn't know it was illegal for me to do that," doesn't usually get the defendant off of the hook.
Kelly
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uaru
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:53:43 PM new
"I don't like the negativity either in TOS, but sometimes us sellers need some protection from outages."
I'm not sure what protections having terms in your TOS about your right to refuse to sell will offer. If the bidder is the high bidder they'll still be able to issue a negative feedback.
The way I see it you either have a reserve or minimum bid you can live with or you hope the bidder will be understanding when you tell them why you are relisting.
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napcruz
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:53:53 PM new
Suspension because their site is down! That "SUX" big time.
Fraud, no money or goods will change hands so there is no fraud.
If a buyer gets pushy, isn't there a rule somewhere that seller does not have to complete the transaction if he/she is not comfortable with buyer?
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kellyb1
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posted on October 15, 2000 11:58:07 PM new
napcruz,
I think you might want to brush up on what constitutes fraud. In my state a bid on as auction is a legal binding contract. If a seller refuses to sell, it is Fraud. Doesn't matter if no money or merchandise hasn't changed hands.
You might also want to check out the internet fruad complaint center at www.ifccfbi.gov which is operated in part by the FBI.
Not knowing the law will not protect you when you violate the law.
Kelly
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kellyb1
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posted on October 16, 2000 12:00:09 AM new
Napcruz,
Ebay rules state that the seller must complete the transaction, and failure to do so can get a seller suspended from ebay.
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abacaxi
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posted on October 16, 2000 04:32:33 AM new
I have seen auctions CLOSED by eBay because they had that phrase. And the seller (a friend of mine) was warned to stop doing it.
If it worries you, put a reserve on it, and explain that the reserve is to protect your investment if eBay has problems.
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HartCottageQuilts
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posted on October 16, 2000 05:00:55 AM new
What abacaxi said. If you need to protect your investment and still have a low opening bid, use a reserve, and tell bidders why you're using it.
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napcruz
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posted on October 16, 2000 05:13:18 AM new
Thanks Everyone!!!
Guess that phrase won't be going in my TOS. No place like AW to get good solid advice.
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jlb444
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posted on October 16, 2000 07:20:04 AM new
The Problem is new bidders Will Not understand TOS that state you reserve the right not sell if Ebay is down. They probably don't know what the outages are all about. Ebay really should extend auctions regardless if they are down for any period of time period. What big deal would it be to add 24 hours to auctions? The top bidder would look to see if they won and WaLa they would see ""Extended Auction** due to Ebay Outage. Wouldn't that even put a Brighter Light on Ebay's Customer Relations then all of these Negative Posts for them. Also Z: I love your hard outage post about your Head hitting the key board...I am still LOL
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abingdoncomputers
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posted on October 16, 2000 07:36:17 AM new
Refusing to sell to the winning bidder is certainly not a good idea. eBay may well suspend your account and the bidder could possibly pursue a civil lawsuit against you (highly unlikely). But this would not constitute fraud.
By refusing to sell to the high bidder you are breaking a contract. This is a civil matter which leaves you vulnerable to a lawsuit and possible loss of property (damages).
Fraud on the other hand is a criminal offense that could result in jail time as well as a loss of property (fines and restitution). The only way that this situation would become fraud is if you accept payment and then fail to deliver the goods as described in the auction listing.
[ edited by abingdoncomputers on Oct 16, 2000 07:38 AM ]
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skyscout
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posted on October 16, 2000 08:20:07 AM new
You peopel talking fraud are rediculous. The internet fraud complaint center has better thigns to do than go after people who haven't even stolen anything! Many people run the disclaimer about Ebay down time in their ad, along with on about bid retractions in the last 24 hours (to prevent people from determining others' maximum bids.) It is an unfortunate situation to lose bids but the seller is the one that would lose and thus must take the initiative even if it ain't pretty. kellyb, you are well known for your hating of snipers so I am not surprised to see you here babbling.
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comicjunkie
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posted on October 16, 2000 08:47:33 AM new
If a seller truly lost a good sum of money (not just 5 or 10 bucks), then it would be in there best interest to tell the high bidder, that the item was lost or destroyed. I know if I lost a hundred or more dollars because of a system outage, there would be no way I would let the item go, period.
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Glenda
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posted on October 16, 2000 08:56:32 AM new
Skyscout: Kelly's comments are on the mark, and people who don't have the same opinion as you aren't "ridiculous."
I always have to laugh when somebody proclaims "you are well known for ..." As an insult attempt, it's a pretty lame effort.
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upriver
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posted on October 16, 2000 09:02:49 AM new
That's awfully tricky situation -- if your local service provider was down, or some connection provider in-between, you might not be able to access your items -- but someone in another part of the country might -- so refusing to sell could land you in a difficult situation.
Use a reserve when you need to seems to be the answer, it will either get met or not.
Otherwise, list it low & let it go!
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