posted on June 9, 2002 02:46:53 PM new
It says to be protected from ANY REVERSAL, you must follow the STEPS in the Sellers Protection program. YOU DID NOT. In fact, you continue to argue they do apply.
posted on June 9, 2002 03:15:56 PM new
[It says to be protected from ANY REVERSAL, you must follow the STEPS in the Sellers Protection program. YOU DID NOT. In fact, you continue to argue they do apply]
Yes coonr. It said you must follow the steps in the sellers protection.
Facts:
There are no listed steps in October 2001 for reversal protection. It says chargeback.
Fact:
In Jan 2002, Paypal changed the Sellers protection from the word chargeback to the word reversal under the heading of "general"
I think you can read the terms you just don'r know how to understand them. The section you like to post lies in with the sellers protection. If the seller protection does not list provisions for reversal protection, I am covered as a premier account holder.
Paypal must give me sellers protection unless they list reason for removal.
In October 2001 , there are no listed reasons for reversal protection removal. It only says chargeback.
A refersal and a chargeback are not the same thing.
So according to Paypals own rules, They had no way to remove my sellers protection.
So Paypal messed up. And I proved it. I know that hurts your pride.
Then if you are so smart, Please list the steps of sellers protecton.
List sellers protection. Not chargeback protection..
Its amazing that you claim to know so much but at the same time are so wrong.
Paypal told me flat out that I was not protected under the sellers protection. They have a duty to show me where. They failed under the correct section or the correct date.
Sorry Coonr. I know it hurts when I show you taht you are wrong but too bad....
posted on June 9, 2002 05:55:43 PM newandrew123Now it might be different, but the seller here is indicating at the time of this transaction (Oct 2001), with "no shipping address required" selected by the buyer, there was no warning of possible chargebacks/reversals.
Yes, Andrew I've seen what this seller is claiming, but I disagree. When the 'confirmed' preferences and features were rolled out in early 2001 I did test them using my personal account sending to my seller's account. I purposely choose 'services' without an address to see if their was any loophole on a buyer possibly sending me a payment with an unconfirmed address that I'd be forced to accepte. My test found no such loop hole then. As far as any test you'd like to try now, all you need is a personal and seller's account to test it yourself.
The OP is saying there was a loop hole to send a payment without a confirmed billing address in October by selecting 'services'. I'm telling you that when the system was first activated in early 2001 there was no such loop hole, I made a special effort to check that by sending a payment to my seller's account selecting 'services' and the 'confirmed' address preferences couldn't be bypassed.
One of us is wrong on how it worked and continues to work. You decide who you want to believe.
you have seen them before, and your still gonna argue they dont apply. But here they are again.
1. The seller has a U.S. Verified Business or a U.S. Verified Premier Account or a Canadian International - Verified Business or Canadian International - Verified Premier Account. Note: While International sellers outside of Canada may have a status of International - Verified, they do not qualify for and are not protected by the Seller Protection Policy and therefore may be responsible for any reversals made due to fraudulent funds
2. The seller ships to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
3. The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This documentation must show that you shipped to the Confirmed Address. (Most U.S. carrier companies offer this service, including the U.S. Postal Service.) For transactions $500 or more in value that are initiated between November 15, 2001 and April 19, 2002, and for transactions $250 or more in value that are initiated on or after April 19, 2002, the seller also needs to provide an online proof-of-receipt in the form of a signature from the recipient. Because comparable proof-of-shipment is not currently available for electronically-delivered items, we are currently unable to offer Seller Protection for digital goods and other electronically-delivered items.
4. The seller accepted a single payment from only one PayPal account for the purchase. (Multiple payments from different accounts for a single item are a fraud indicator. Sellers should not accept such payments.)
5. The seller ships to a domestic (U.S.) buyer at a U.S. address.
6. The seller cooperates in resolving disputes by responding in the following time periods: When a complaint occurs, the seller must provide complete information within 7 days of a request from PayPal. However, if PayPal is required by the credit card association to respond immediately to resolve a reversal, sellers must provide the information within 3 days. PayPal will indicate the response time required in the e-mail message sent to the seller.
7. The seller ships within 7 days of receiving payment.
posted on June 9, 2002 09:45:47 PM new
Coonr. Those posted are all sub points under "general"
A contract reads from top to bottom. Left to right.
You forgot to post the section under which those points fall under. The do not fall under "buyers protection"
They fall under sellers protection sub point called General. section I which is this :
i. General. PayPal agrees to indemnify sellers of physical goods from chargeback liability resulting from a buyer's unauthorized use of a credit card and/or false claims of non-shipment of goods. This protection applies to up to $5,000 per year of payments received by the seller through PayPal if the following conditions are met:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
(it clearly says chargeback and not reversal. It was later changed from chargeback to reversal)
That is why they are numbered and not lettered. That's the way you write a contract. The sub points go under the topic. if the topic is a number bullet point, the sub points will be letters.
They all fall under the chargeback liability section. They do not fall under the reversal liability section until Jan 24th 2002 when Paypal re-wrote the section.
In October 2001, there are no listed steps for reversal liability protection.
Those conditions listed by you are what is required for sellers protection against chargebacks in October 2001.
Come on Sultan55....
Oh sorry I slipped, over here you are known as Coonr.
But sorry Coonr. That is the way a contract is written and that is the way to show you that you don't understand this one.
(also, you posted the wrong dated terms of use. Just like Damon did. October 2001 comes before the year 2002.)
uaru
[The OP is saying there was a loop hole to send a payment without a confirmed billing address in October by selecting 'services'. I'm telling you that when the system was first activated in early 2001 there was no such loop hole, I made a special effort to check that by sending a payment to my seller's account selecting 'services' and the 'confirmed' address preferences couldn't be bypassed. ]
No. That is not what I said or what I tried to say. A buyer has the right to chose to list their account address or have it removed on the payment screen. For this they only need to select no shipping address required under auction goods. It removes the confirmed/non-confirmed status as well as the warning on the page. I never said services. It was for auction goods. Just was not for shipped auction goods.
If they wanted it shipped they need to give an address. They also need to pay for shipping if I did not promise it for free shipping. I did not.
I have been a account holder for almost three years. I am very familiar with how Paypal works.
I had no reason to need a confirmed address.
The payment was from a verifed account holder and were Paypal funds. There was no chance of fraudulent card use or a chargeback. I read the terms of use as well as my wife who is an attorney and the terms of use required shipping to confirmed address for chargeback protection only.
So I was safe to have the buyer pick up the item or arrange other means of delivery as it was a funds payment. Paypal has 100% choice to approve or deny one where a credit card company is in charge of a chargeback.
As the terms of the payment was not for an item to be shipped. The buyer never had promises goods to be shipped. They did not ask for shipping by the terms of the payment.
As soon as I took that payment and transferred ownership of the item, Paypal's services where done. They had no legal right to make me ship. They had no legal right to make me ship to a confirmed address. They are not an escrow company and so they can not escrow the sale.
As soon as the buyer chose to remove shipping from the payment, they also removed their ability to make a buyers complaint. As a buyers complaint only covers non-shipping. The buyer can not prove we ever agreed on shipping.
They may chose this type of payment if you arrange pickup. This buyer chose it so they could use PayPal to comit mail fraud. They almost got away with it. No help to Paypal who did not assist me ever. Not one ounce of help. They were 100% worthless to me.
But by the way, the item was received by they buyer and they have admitted it several ways including to USPS. I offered everything to Paypal and they did not want any information from me.
[ edited by kkaaz on Jun 9, 2002 09:58 PM ]
You asked for the step of the Sellers protection program. I posted them. A single word in previous paragraph does not alter the steps, as another section refers you to the steps of the Sellers Protection Program. The refering para does not refer you to the "General" paragraph.
Yes I copied those from the NEW terms, which matters not, the "Confirmed" address requirements was and is in all the "steps."
As predicted you continue to argue they dont apply.
posted on June 10, 2002 05:12:18 AM newIf they wanted it shipped they need to give an address. They also need to pay for shipping if I did not promise it for free shipping. I did not.
In other posts yo have admitted they paid for shipping.
On eBay if not since deleted. His rant has been going on for about 6 months. To see the shipping, compare the amount in dispute to the amount bid on his auction.
I figured you would not understand the terms of use. It's one thing to copy and paste and another thing to understand what you are reading.
All six sub points you posted are the requirements necessary if you want Paypal to protect you from a credit card chargeback from fraudulent card use and or/ claims of non-shipping.
I did not get a chargeback. I could not. I did not take a credit card fund and a credit card company could not ask for the funds back. Only Paypal has the say in issuing a funds reversal.
Shipping to a confirmed address is # 2 of Chargeback protection.
As I have confirmed, they are not listed under reversal protection until Jan 2002 at which time, the terms of use says reversal liability.
So as I have proven, the terms of use from October 2001 under the section of "sellers protection" does not require shipping to a confirmed address for reversal protection.
I am not saying Paypal messed up. They saw that they wrote the terms incorrectly. They changed then in Jan. 2002 They fixed them. But by that time it was too late. Paypal has no legal right to change the wording of a user agreement and then apply the changes to past transactions.
At the date of my transaction and by the type of payment I got, I was safe to transfer ownership of said Item without the fear of the buyer or Paypal frauding me. However, Paypal felt that for some reason, they would dismiss all the obvious proof of fraud and make a judgement call and honor the accounts right to comit mail fraud. And Paypal did it beyond the terms of use. There was nothing in the terms of use from October 2001 that says a buyer can comit mail fraud if the seller can not "prove" what the confirmed address is.
And nothing that said I must ship and item paid for and nothing that said I must ship to a different address then the one the buyer gave me.
Had I not arranged to get the item to the buyer at the location requested by them, I would have breached the sale on Ebay and received a negative feedback and a warning from Ebay.
Had the buyer not received the item, they should have left me a negative saying they did not get the item. And Ebay should not have closed their account down.
But they left me a positive feedback and confirmed by it that they did get that item several other ways. And Ebay closed their account due to false information on their account.
Mail fraud over location? Paypal allows fraud based on where the buyer requested shipping by e-mail.
Mail fraud is mail fraud at every location if shipped by USPS. Confirmed or not. It's mail fraud to order and item and then not pay for it once you get it.
That is what my buyer did and they only way they could have done what they did is by using Paypal.
posted on June 10, 2002 11:20:57 AM new
And you should really ask for a raise from Paypal.
All this time you spend defending them, you could be taking some legal classes and trying to understand some of the stuff you are reading and defending against.
posted on June 10, 2002 12:08:05 PM new
I love how those with problem,s insist it is us who are not having problems, are the ones who do not understand the Terms of Use.
You got the reversal, because you did not comply with the TOS. Continueous post otherwise wont change that fact.
posted on June 10, 2002 01:20:43 PM newkkaazA buyer has the right to chose to list their account address or have it removed on the payment screen. For this they only need to select no shipping address required under auction goods. It removes the confirmed/non-confirmed status as well as the warning on the page.
That is incorrect. Anyone with a personal and seller's account can try and sent their seller's account funds and select 'no shipping address' but that will not 'remove the confirmed/non-confirmed status' as you are claiming.
Anyone doubting that who has a seller's account and personal account can verify that for themselves. It can't be done, it never could be done.
posted on June 10, 2002 01:25:41 PM new
Kkaaz, I think what Coonr has been saying is this. Basically, all transactions have a chance of reversal, and the seller is always liable for that reversal. The only exception to this is where it said:
i. General. PayPal agrees to indemnify sellers of physical goods from chargeback liability resulting from a buyer's unauthorized use of a credit card and/or false claims of non-shipment of goods. This protection applies to up to $5,000 per year of payments received by the seller through PayPal if the following conditions are met:
So basically, all transactions are subject to reversal except chargebacks in where you follow the seller protection policy. Because it doesn't mention anything about indemnifying sellers from reversal liability (only chargeback liability), technically no buyer complaints are covered from looking at that section, since the only exception to liability for any kind of reversal is a chargeback where you followed the policy. Now of course, in practice, PayPal indemnifys you of liability no matter what kind of reversal if you follow the SPP, but technically, if you were just looking at that part of the TOS, you would be liable.
I still don't think you should have to pay it because of what it says in other parts of the tos (how a buyer complaint wouldn't be honored if the seller provied other satisfactory evidence of a resolution, and how it explains on the confirmed address page that you can ship to whatever address you want but you will be liable for chargebacks, it doesn't say reversals).
I hope what I am trying to say makes sense.
[ edited by andrew123s on Jun 10, 2002 01:28 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2002 05:45:29 PM new
andrew123s
Yes. I understand what you are saying. If what you are saying is the case. Paypal is claiming to offer sellers protection only against chargebacks. (in October 2001)
Which would mean they may be false advertising there service. They told me that If I was a premier account holder and I was selling an item. I would be protected under the sellers protection. They did not say it does not apply to account funds or e-checks.
If the sellers protection said I had to ship to a confirmed address for protection against a reversal like it does now, I would have denied that payment, risked a negative feedback to protect myself from Paypal.
The part that kills me is that Paypal is the one who makes the choice on a reversal. They can chose what proof to take like the terms you pointed out. "other satisfactory evidence of a resolution"
Unlike a chargeback when Paypal can only answer to the credit card company, Paypal has the first and last say in honoring a reversal. The entire investigation is up to them. They knowingly process a reversal even with proof of possible of mail fraud. They chose to dismiss the obvious and reasonable proof. And now I am have offered them solid evidence of fraud and they still don’t care. They still will allow me to pay out of my pocket now to allow their account to be used to fraud me.
I am out over $200 if I pay out of my pocket to close my paypal account.
Damon basically said it does not matter if the buyer got the item or not. That even if I have a video take confession that they got it and pictures of them getting the item, If I can not prove it was shipped to the confirmed address (and because I never got an address from Paypal, In my case I needed a court order), Paypal will honor their complaint even if it is to comit a crime (mail fraud)
Which is like saying Paypal is saying it's ok to ask for your item shipped to your work (not confirmed) and then once you get it, complain and get your money back because you work address is not the confirmed (one that can be hidden)address on your account. Paypal will not stop you or even report you to Ebay or any authorities.
I understand in a chargeback scenario, Paypal is only following the rules of the issuing bank. But in my case. I got a Paypal Funds reversal and they had the power to stop this fraudulent act. They chose not to. They chose to lose me as a long time customer, they chose to charge me a service fee for services not received. And they even changed their terms of use to now give every buyer (credit cards, e-check or funds payment) the power to easily comit mail fraud by either hiding their confirmed address by selecting no address required or by asking the seller to ship to a more secure location then their home. (or where ever they get their credit card bills).
Almost half of the items I buy are for gift or alternate locations(or are worth too much so I have them shipped to my work). That does not give Paypal the right to allow me to comit mail fraud using their service. If they are informed of a crime, they should take the information and do something. Not just collect their service fees and move on to let someone else do it again.
I offered them more then enough proof to see a crime was attempted and that they processed a fraudulent buyers claim. They chose to not do anything with the proof I offered.
So as my thread name, A Paypal account used to attempt mail fraud.
posted on June 27, 2002 12:22:48 PM new
This just in:
USPS sent me a letter yesterday with a scan from the delivery that had the person with signature and with address listed by USPS and the signer.
Sure Damon and the rest of the crew at Paypal. They deserve to get their funds back. NOT !!!
They got the item and everyone including them says so but Paypal thinks they have the right to give away my Ebay auction items without making my buyers pay for it because they were able to conceal their "confirmed address" from me.
Paypal let the buyer get the funds back after they signed for the item at the address requested by them.
They said something like "Paypal, we want our money back. Even though we got the item and it's just like the seller said, we were able to hid our confirmed address so the seller can not prove what it is"
Paypal said something like "Sure, no problem, you were able to hid your confirmed address so you have the right to commit mail fraud. "
Sorry Paypal. I hope that's not what you said. Because that is what you let them do.
Way to stop fraud Paypal !!!
Way to look out for the best interest of the fraudulent users Damon !!!!
Great to know Paypal is there to charge me a service fee to let someone commit mail fraud against me !!!!
Thanks Paypal. Such a wonderful service you offer. And to know you would protect a fraudulent account holder in the event that they wanted to commit a crime!!!!
(Which by the way will all be offered to one of the law firms representing one of the class action lawsuits against Paypal)
posted on June 27, 2002 01:29:03 PM new
kkaaz, rather than wade through your post can you tell me what size it was? I think that would help my understanding.
posted on June 27, 2002 01:59:10 PM new
It doesn't matter whether it was 10 cents or 10k. 10 ounces or 10 tons payponzi took care or the thief not the honest person. That's how they make their money. As the saying goes "we make money one way, we steal it"
posted on June 27, 2002 02:09:17 PM newclub1manIt doesn't matter whether it was 10 cents or 10k.
No, not that kind of size. I'm looking for 9mm or .357, or .44 Magnum. I want to know what size caliber the gun was up to kkaaz's head that forced him to accept and ship to an unconfirmed billing address.
No, the buyer doesn't have to supply the billing address, with PayPal, BillPoint, or YahooPayDirect. With PayPal kkaaz had to take some sort of action to accept that payment, and I want to know what size gun was up to his head making him do that.
[I want to know what size caliber the gun was up to kkaaz's head that forced him to accept and ship to an unconfirmed billing address. ]
What part do you not understand?
I did not ship to an unconfirmed billing address.
I never got a "billing address".
I never got any address that was classified as "unconfirmed" by Paypal.
The payment did not contain any billing address or any warning that ANYTHING was "unconfirmed" or that I was at risk from Paypal's dirty hands.
I shipped to a valid US address. The address the buyer gave me. I shipped to the same address they told me to.
So they MUST pay for the item if they chose to keep the item.
It does not matter if I cannot "prove" if the address was confirmed or not. I can prove they gave me the address. I can prove the item was shipped there. I can prove they got and kept the item.
So Paypal did the wrong thing. They helped the wrong person.
What gun? It's called the "gun of contract". My item on Ebay says I take Paypal. I was paid by Paypal. So I must transfer ownership or risk negative feedback and breach of contract on Ebay.
I did what was required. I got payment, I shipped, I confirmed receipt and delivery and I confirmed the correct party got the item. I have been buying and selling on Ebay for over three years.
In the United States, if you order and item and have it shipped thru USPS but chose to not pay for the item after you get it, that is mail fraud. Check out www.usps.com
They person attempted to fraud me for over $350 thanks to Paypal's services.
It does not matter if it is the same address as the one where your credit card bills go. I did not have to worry about a stolen credit card or fraudulent funds so I have no care over if they even have credit cards or credit card bills sent to them.
I dealt with a verified Paypal account, which has been proven by USPS to be used to attempt mail fraud against me.
Paypal allowed them to fraud me.
That is the bottom line. You can change words all you want but fraud is fraud. And Paypal reversed a payment against me after the buyer received the “promised goods”
That is mail fraud.
What forced me to take the payment ? The fact that I said I would take Paypal. Do you not understand how Ebay works ?
If you say you will take Paypal, you must if they chose to pay you with Paypal.
Unless I stated I would only ship to "confirmed address" in my auction description, I must take the payment or be in breach of the ebay sale. And if I take a paypal payment, I must give them the item.
Which I did. And which I "proved" I did.
Why do people who just don't understand things like you try and confuse facts ?
And Ebay sale is a binding contract. You must list any exceptions in your description if you are going to pick and chose who or what you will take.
posted on June 27, 2002 03:02:40 PM newkkaazWhat part do you not understand?
Kkaaz, I guess what I don't understand is you not ever making a decision to accept the payment.
I'll make a multiple choice question for you to save typing these messages that end up in a circle.
a) The payment didn't have a confirmed address and I was required to 'accept' or 'deny' it.
b) I choose to automatically accept all payments without a billing address.
c) I choose to automatically deny all payments without a billing address.
d) The buyer held a gun to my head and forced me to accept the payment without a confirmed billing address.
If your answer is (c) then PayPal screwed you, if it is any other answer then you will need to cry on Al Sharpton's shoulder.
I had no reason to deny the payment. It was for verified Paypal funds from a verifed account and had no chance of "chargeback" or credit card fraud. The term of the payment did not require shipping to a confirmed address and the seller’s protection at that time did not require shipping to confirmed address on "funds" transfer or for protection from "reversals".
I offered Paypal in my auction. I must take it. If you sell an item on Ebay and you will only ship to "confirmed address", you MUST say so in the listing.
Have you even used Ebay before? If you say you accept Paypal then you must or risk a negative feedback and a warning /possible suspension from Ebay.
I said I take Paypal. So I must if they chose to pay me by Paypal.
It's like saying I will take cash payments on my listing. If the buyer sends me all $20 bills, I do not have the right to return the money and make them pay me in $5 bills. If I only take cash in $5 bills, I MUST list that on the Ebay auction.
Had the payment been for credit card funds, I would of required a account address as the terms of use said you must ship to "confirmed address" if you want chargeback protection. But they were not from credit cards. Paypal gave me the funds and allowed them to remove the address of the payment.
Paypal allowed the buyer to fraud me.
And I signed up for Paypal when then were xcom/paypal. I did not set up to deny payments. And on the payment I got, the buyer chose to select no shipping address required. There were no warnings. I had no reason to believe that Paypal would allow this person to fraud me.
So the answer to your multiple choice is E
e)The buyer used Paypal to commit mail fraud and Paypal let them.
That was the mistake. I used Paypal.
And I will never trust them again. They were rude, unprofessional and they did absolutely nothing to ever help me.
The buyer could not have done what they did with any other payment type.
posted on June 27, 2002 03:47:13 PM new
"I offered Paypal in my auction. I must take it. If you sell an item on Ebay and you will only ship to "confirmed address", you MUST say so in the listing."
If I were you I would do just that. Whoever is right about this wording of the TOS won't make a difference if payments without confirmed addresses are never accepted.
posted on June 27, 2002 04:41:21 PM new
andrew123s
[If I were you I would do just that. Whoever is right about this wording of the TOS won't make a difference if payments without confirmed addresses are never accepted.]
Or better yet, just don't take Paypal payments at all. Paypal allows buyers to remove the confirmed address and any such warnings.
Unlike Billpoint. If you take an e-check thru Billpoint, you are safe to ship once cleared to any address the buyer wants.
If a person sending a Paypal payment wants an item shipped, Paypal should require them to at least give you the confirmed address and a warning of possible fraud if not shipped to that address.
My payment did not contain such information or ANY warnings of possible reversal or fraud.
Plus many people do not want items only shipped to the same location as their bills. I like to get stuff shipped to my work if more then $50.
That does not give me or anyone the right to keep the item without paying for it.
Sometimes I buy stuff for others. Sometimes I buy gifts. Sometime I have them shipped to their homes. Again, Paypal should not let me give the seller an address and then get my money back simply because the address is not "confirmed"
If a buyer gets an item that is shipped USPS to them, they must pay for it if they keep it. THAT IS A LAW. Paypal is not beyond the laws.
I have noticed that a lot of Paypal supporters on this message board and Ebay sell low cost items. Who cares if someone takes your for $5. I don't sell $5 items. I throw them away if I don't want them. But if I sold $5 items, I would not worry about fraud as much as the seller selling $200 items.
Paypal should stop mail fraud when given proof. A term of use does not protect you from criminal acts. The party who paid me attempted to use the mail system and Paypal to fraud me. Mail fraud. A criminal act.
Paypal should have stopped it. Paypal should have penalized them. Paypal should have helped me. Paypal should of given me some kind of professional courtesy.
They did not do one thing to help me and they were never anywhere close to professional about handling the situation.
posted on July 16, 2002 09:51:42 PM new
After a paypal support pointed out a section of Paypal's user agreement, I noticed I missed just one word which Paypal changed which alterned the "sellers protection"
What I notice which was funny was that they altered the wording after I so many times pointed out that the sellers protection did not require shipping to confirmed address for "reversal protection" in October 2001 when I got a reversal and not a chargeback from a false claim made against me that Paypal processed.
Paypal Damon claimed over and over they did not change the terms but here is more proof they did change the terminology. More proof that Paypals' own legal document which we both agreed to, did not warn of a reversal for not shipping to confirmed address under the section iii called "CONFIRMED ADDRESS" until almost 4 months after I got a reversal for not shipping to confirmed address even though they received the item.
Oct 12 2001 Terms of Use:
<h4>
If a buyer does not provide a Confirmed Address, the seller must either refuse the payment and ask that the buyer provide a Confirmed Address, or accept the chargeback risk in shipping the item outside of this Seller Protection Policy.
</h4>
Which says if you do not ship to the confirmed address, you accept that you are at risk of a "chargeback"
IT DOES NOT say that you accept the reversal risk for not shipping to confirmed address.
So unless you were concerned about a chargeback, according to that section, you are safe to ship to a non-confirmed address.
So according to Paypals own terms of use, I was safe on a funds payment becuase that can not be a chargeback. So according to Paypal own terms of use, I could ship to any address the buyer gave me confirmed or not and not worry about a bogus reversal.
But then Paypal changed it to now read the word "reversal".
A "Chargeback" is when a person uses a credit card to fund a payment and the credit card company demands its money back. It is not the same thing as a "reversal" of funds or an e-check reversal in which Paypal processes those and has final say in honoring one. Paypal does not process chargebacks but they do process reversal.
Jan 2002 to July 2002 User agreement:
<h4>
If a buyer does not provide a Confirmed Address, the seller must either refuse the payment and ask that the buyer provide a Confirmed Address, or accept the reversal risk in shipping the item outside of this Seller Protection Policy
</h4>
Oh.. Now it says reversal where it said chargeback.
Now it says you must ship to confirmed address or accept the "reversal" risk.
Now... they warn you that you may get a reversal if you do not ship to a confirmed address. A little late Paypal.... (maybe you did listen to me after all. Maybe that's why you would not let us speak to anyone in your legal dept. or a customer service supervisor and chose to hang up on us instead) You just chose to take my advice and change the wording after you released I was right... But still felt the need to dupe me)
It's almost funny how just about every word that said CHARGEBACK in the section called "SELLERS PROTECTION" was changed in Jan 2002 to say REVERSAL which was right after I started contacting Paypal and Damon again about their bogus reversal against me....
Hummmm....
So Paypal proceed a bogus reversal against me because my buyer was able to remove their account address off the payment and ask for a funds reversal after receiving the item (it's also called mail fraud if the item is mailed with USPS) and NOWHERE in the terms of use did it warn of reversal liabilty for not shipping to confirmed address untill Jan 2002 when Paypal changed it from the word chargeback to the word reversal which was about 4 months after my trasaction. (that is still not cleared up as my account sits at a negitive $365 even though Paypal had no right to dupe me.)
The lengths some companies will go to cover their own rear ends when publicly put on the spot.
Hopefully now that Ebay owns Paypal, you won't have to fight for your own rights on your paypal account.
posted on July 18, 2002 10:35:45 PM new
From what I have read, PrayPal will continue to be run by the same tyrants that are currently running it now even after the buyout so there is still hope that they will bankrupt themselves.
posted on August 7, 2002 07:20:50 AM new
Dear Dave,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
I apologize for the inconvenience of the situation and I would really like
to assist you to the best of my abilities, however, I need the information
that was requested of you in my original email. In following PayPal's
Terms of Use, you would have shipped the merchandise to the buyers
confirmed billing address along with tracking information so that you would
be protected should anything go wrong with the transaction. I really need
to be able to track the merchandise that was shipped online in order to
complete my investigation in your favor and get your funds back to you.
Please forward the tracking information for this shipment so that I may
better assist you. Thank you.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
