posted on June 8, 2002 11:16:55 PM new
I'm ignoring him from now on.
Your right what they are doing is getting around the credit company policies to make the big bucks. If you look at the bios of all the exec's they don't stay in one place long. My thoughts are "make the money and run", like x.com did. I didn't lose any money with x.com but I've heard of many who have. Think of it freezing accounts,illegal gambling, porn sites. That doesn't even take in the lies and leading people into a false sence of security. The others out there might have problems but at least their honest.
posted on June 9, 2002 05:46:34 AM new
Flaoisland, said, Mastercard lost because online gambling is illegal in CA and practically every state. They are not allowed to accept transactions for illegal gambling. Paypal also states they do not accept illegal online gambling. I started this discussion since an easy Google check finds so many online gamblers take Paypal and it is so easy to find them so why does Paypal not search on Google?
My only guess would be online gambling is not illegal for a significant portion of PayPals customers. (For example, any state where it may be legal, or international where it may be legal.)
A good friend of mine and his brother both play poker on-line (for real money). We live in California. So I asked them yesterday how they are able to do so, since visa and mastercard no longer allow these charges. He said "Oh, everyone knows, PayPal is the only way you can do it now." Then he said something someone else in this thread said previously. "Because when the charge goes through to M/C or Visa, it doesn't say "GoldenPalaceCasino.com" or whatever, it just says "PayPal".
I agree that on-line gambling is illegal in almost every state in the US., and the international customer base is MUCH smaller than in the US.
You really DO have to wonder how PayPal is going to justify this when it becomes an issue in the media, etc.
You can't tell me PayPal's just going to sit there and throw their hands up and go "Oh, WE didn't know that the business we were transfering money to was an ON-LINE CASINO!" Well, maybe you can tell me that.
posted on June 9, 2002 12:43:47 PM new
You're right they probably already have a law firm that has prepared a statement that their public relations firm will release. It will be carefully prepared to make the legal athorities and politicians believe their dirty hands are clean. Actually all they would have to do is make one of their employees a sacraficial lamb or say it was a glich in the system and they didn't catch it in time.
The same will probably hold true for the porn sites.
posted on June 9, 2002 01:11:24 PM newActually all they would have to do is make one of their employees a sacraficial lamb or say it was a glich in the system and they didn't catch it in time.
posted on June 9, 2002 03:36:45 PM new
i done it i went to paypal website and gave them an extra click!
quote from TOS
"International Users in some countries may not use the Service to receive payments, and may only use the Service to send payments. These countries are designated on the PayPal International page. IT IS PAYPAL'S ASSUMPTION THAT INTERNATIONAL USERS ARE SIGNING UP FOR A PAYPAL ACCOUNT ONLY AFTER DETERMINING THAT OPENING AND MAINTAINING A PAYPAL ACCOUNT VIOLATES NO LAWS OR REGULATIONS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE COUNTRY AND JURISDICTION. If you are an international user, you warrant that you are violating no law or regulation by your use of PayPal, and you indemnify us for any and all liability that might arise from your use of PayPal."
as with most statements can be interpreted in many ways however online gambling is breaking mc/visa tos therefore if i "lost" iwould report myself to my credit card for being a bad boy ganbling against their terms and get my $$$ cash. if that dont work report yourself to paypal also for being a bad boy and making illegal transactions and you want your money back!
posted on June 9, 2002 04:04:56 PM new
If Mastercard Visa etc find out that this is going on they are going to go crazy. They could get sued again and be liable for giant gaming amounts.
posted on June 9, 2002 04:06:54 PM new
Ltlcrafty1: Oh gosh, that is really bad. So Paypal's computers do not even look to see your friend is in California when he transfers money for the online gambling which is illegal in California.
posted on June 9, 2002 04:38:03 PM new
Futher, is the activity gambling or gaming? In some states one is illegal and the other is not. In fact in La. a special division of the La State Police oversee the gaming operations.
posted on June 9, 2002 05:20:32 PM new
Gambling has long been recognized as a crime in the state of Louisiana and despite the enactment of many legalized gaming activities remains a crime. Gambling which occurs via the Internet embodies the very activity that the legislature seeks to prevent.
RS 14:90.3
Internet Protocol compatible protocols, and provides, uses or makes accessible, either publicly or privately, high level services layered on the communications and related infrastructure described herein.(9) "Server" means a computer that listens for and services a client.(10) "World Wide Web" means a server providing connections to mega lists of information on the Internet; it is made up of millions of individual web sites linked together.D. Whoever commits the crime of gambling by computer shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.E. Whoever designs, develops, manages, supervises, maintains, provides, or produces any computer services, computer system, computer network, computer software, or any server providing a Home Page, Web Site, or any other product accessing the Internet, World Wide Web, or any part thereof offering to any client for the primary purpose of the conducting as a business of any game, contest, lottery, or contrivance whereby a person risks the loss of anything of value in order to realize a profit shall be fined not more than twenty thousand dollars, or imprisoned with or without hard labor, for not more than five years, or both.
The provisions of this Subsection shall not exempt from criminal prosecution any telephone company, Internet Service Provider, software developer, licensor, or other such party if its primary purpose in providing such service is to conduct gambling as a business
They know he's in California - He has a regular 'personal' PayPal account - it's right there in his profile.
And yes, he was and is in california at the time he requests the money transfer.
Just by knowing that online gambling is illegal in almost all of the US, the places where it IS legal (international) have to make less than 10% of PayPal's users. You'd think they wouldn't leave themselves so wide open to that risk.
More interesting stuff: I just opened an e-mail from a 'StarBlastCasino.com' - I clicked on the link in the e-mail just to see what the payment options are. Sure enough, right at the bottom of the page is the "PayPal" logo. There is, however, a visa logo also, but I'm guessing at least their system is set up to reject your transaction if you are attempting it from a state where it is illegal (I'M not going to test it). PayPal's system obviously does not.
{Further, is the activity gambling or gaming...} it's ON-LINE gambling.
posted on June 9, 2002 05:50:15 PM new
this flat out proves paypals TOS are complete BS they adhere to them when it suits themselves and ignore when it doesn't.
At the end of the day what can an individual do against such a large company as paypal not much without spending alot of $$$$.
posted on June 9, 2002 07:30:48 PM new
I understand everyone wants to call it gambling. However, you will need to check the applicable state laws, as it may be legal gaming. Just like in La. where Black Jack, Poker, craps, roulette, and slots are all gaming. NOT GAMBLING.
[ edited by Coonr on Jun 9, 2002 07:53 PM ]
posted on June 9, 2002 07:48:37 PM new
.(1)(a) Gambling is the intentional conducting, or directly assisting in the conducting, as a business, of any game, contest, lottery, or contrivance whereby a person risks the loss of anything of value in order to realize a profit.
posted on June 9, 2002 08:08:18 PM new
Coonr: We are talking about online gaming/gambling as we have made mention of too many times too count. The answer does not really concern you as your effort is to disrupt only. Please stop it.
[ edited by Flaoisland on Jun 9, 2002 08:08 PM ]
posted on June 9, 2002 08:22:11 PM new
In case you missed it I am talking about online gambling/gaming also. In fact I was the one who mentioned gaming.
Sorry you find my comments and questions to difficult to answer or address.
posted on June 9, 2002 08:36:49 PM new
Coonr: I find your comments intended to be harassing. Please everyone in this thread ignore this guy. If he then just posts wildly I will file a complaint. Once again in this thread please ignore his effort to destroy our questioning of this issue.
posted on June 9, 2002 08:43:22 PM new
People often feel that way when they have no vaild response. They than turn to personal attacks such as you have done now.
posted on June 9, 2002 11:12:14 PM new
Funny thing is the post is Lousania's gaming regulations. Any baboon in the state or legislature can be taught to understand the simple wording of the law.
posted on June 10, 2002 05:34:37 AM new
Stoney in you haste to condemn the evil empire known as Paypal you omitted a paragraph from the La. R.S. which says;
I. The providing of Internet or other on-line access, transmission, routing, storage, or other communication related services, or Web Site design, development, storage, maintenance, billing, advertising, hypertext linking, transaction processing, or other site related services, by telephone companies, Internet Service Providers, software developers, licensors, or other such parties providing such services to customers in the normal course of their business, shall not be considered gambling by computer even though the activities of such customers using such services to conduct a prohibited game, contest, lottery, or contrivance may constitute gambling by computer for the purposes of this Section. The provisions of this Subsection shall not exempt from criminal prosecution any telephone company, Internet Service Provider, software developer, licensor, or other such party if its primary purpose in providing such service is to conduct gambling as a business.
That kind of pulls all the teeth from the satute.
Further, in answer to my own question,
Gambling is defined as;
§90. Gambling
A.(1)(a) Gambling is the intentional conducting, or directly assisting in the conducting, as a business, of any game, contest, lottery, or contrivance whereby a person risks the loss of anything of value in order to realize a profit.
(b) Whoever commits the crime of gambling shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.
(2) Whoever conducts, finances, manages, supervises, directs, or owns all or part of an illegal gambling business shall be fined not more than twenty thousand dollars, or imprisoned with or without hard labor, for not more than five years, or both when:
(a) R.S. 14:90 is violated.
(b) Five or more persons are involved who conduct, finance, manage, supervise, direct, or own all or part of an illegal gambling business.
(c) Such business has been in or remains in substantially continuous operation for a period of thirty days or more or, if the continuous operation is for less than thirty days, has a gross revenue of two thousand dollars in any single day.
posted on June 10, 2002 09:35:26 AM new
Gambling has long been recognized as a crime in the state of Louisiana and despite the enactment of many legalized gaming activities remains a crime. Gambling which occurs via the Internet embodies the very activity that the legislature seeks to prevent
posted on June 10, 2002 09:56:59 AM new
Flaoisland,
Could you direct me to your news article or other source on VISA and MasterCard disallowing their credit cards for use with on-line casinos?
I was unable to find any articles on my own and when I wrote MasterCard asking if this was the case and they sent me back a rather cryptic letter that seemed to indicate that the issuer and not MasterCard itself placed any limitations on where the card could be used.
I'd never use an online casino, to me it would like calling up a stranger on a phone and betting on a coin toss with the stranger tossing the coin. If someone else gets entertainment out of that then that's their business. I'm just curious when VISA and MasterCard came out with the no online gambling policies.
posted on June 10, 2002 10:46:28 AM newGambling has long been recognized as a crime in the state of Louisiana and despite the enactment of many legalized gaming activities remains a crime.
No argument there. However as defined by the legislature, what many would consider gambling is not. If it's not even gambling, it cannot be illegal gambling.
posted on June 10, 2002 02:01:42 PM new
Flaoisland;
From a portion of PayPal's annual report (see below) - it would appear that they ARE willing to engage in this illegal activity in the name of the almighty buck. It almost sounds like they're saying "Yeah, we know it's wrong, but if we stop doing it, we stop making money off of it! - Besides, we charge them more, so that makes it okay.".
And the number of accounts they consider to be 'higher risk' are just the one's they have IDENTIFIED as high risk. You know there are more than that out there.
"Higher Risk Accounts
We classify merchants in industries that historically have experienced significant charge-back rates, primarily online gaming-related service providers and online gaming merchants, as "higher risk." As of December 31, 2001, we had 569 accounts designated as "higher risk." For the year ended December 31, 2001, 3.9% of the dollar volume of payments received through PayPal... were received by higher risk accounts. In order to control the risks presented... We charge higher fees to these merchants, ranging from 3.4% to 3.9% of the payment amount plus $0.30 per transaction. We also hold a percentage of their incoming payments, typically ranging from 10% to 15%, as a reserve against future charge-backs...
The legal status of many of these higher risk accounts is uncertain, and these businesses could be prohibited or restricted from operating in the future. If these merchants are operating illegally, we could be subject to civil or criminal prosecution for money laundering or for aiding and abetting violations of law. We would also lose the revenues associated with these accounts."
And there's a percentage of their dollar volume that's generated from merchants that they haven't identified as 'higher risk', but engage in on-line gaming.
posted on June 10, 2002 02:23:59 PM new
{In case you missed it I am talking about online gambling/gaming also. In fact I was the one who mentioned gaming.}
In case YOU missed it, you are not. In YOUR haste to divert the attention away from PayPal's illegal activities, you have attempted to turn this into some kind of discussion about Louisiana's gaming laws vs their gambling laws. WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING LOUISIANA LAW. And Flaoisland is the one that brought up on-line gaming, not you.
{People often feel that way when they have no vaild response. They than turn to personal attacks such as you have done now.}
...And then some people just have the Auction Watch message board go through and delete posts that prove to discredit you (proof which YOU asked for, by the way) - but you were not able to handle once you saw it. (BTW - it's "They THEN...", just like in the post from the other day).
{OOPS their went some more of that tigers teeth.}
What are you talking about?!? That definition of 'gambling' is exactly the type of activities that PayPal is involved in. And they know it, and they justify it by charging more for it!
You're M.O. is perfectly clear - you try to divert the attention away from paypal by attempting to confuse the subject with all your little crap nit-picking B.S. - And it's getting really old. It's so obvious if you just read THIS THREAD ALONE! You start out reaching for something, that didn't go anywhere, so you go with another angle. GIVE IT UP!!
posted on June 10, 2002 02:33:03 PM new
Thank you ltlcrafty you said it all. Next lets talk about the porn issue. PAYPONZI seems to support that also. May be we need a separete thread for that.
In fact I was the one who mentioned gaming.