posted on December 12, 2001 05:07:25 PM new
you guys still missed my main point.
if you were defrauded by a seller, paypal will not recognize it as fraud, even if they can refund your money because they still have access to the crook's account.
paypal claim to have fraud protection.
so,
if you paid $1000 for a diamond ring, and the crook sent you a $10 rock, is this fraud or a "quality of merchandise issue?" JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!
i don't need to hear that it's my fault for trusting the crook. Answer the damn question.
i have to walk you babies step by step. when you have answered that question, i will proceed to the next step because some of you still are blind and deaf to what's really going on.
-- arurenu
posted on December 12, 2001 05:27:36 PM newif you paid $1000 for a diamond ring, and the crook sent you a $10 rock, is this fraud or a "quality of merchandise issue?" JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Read all of this before reacting.
It comes under both catagories.
Here's what PayPal has to go on.
Seller A says he shipped a $1,000 diamond ring to Buyer B.
Buyer B says Seller A shipped him a $10.00 rock.
PayPal is able to confirm that Seller A did or didn't ship something because of the tracking on the Delivery Confirmation.
How does PayPal determine who is telling the truth? Now do you understand where the quality of merchandise is an area where they can't make decisions?
If the seller does the same thing to another buyer, or the buyer does the same thing to another seller then PayPal might have something to go on. They can't and shouldn't go just on the word of one of the parties in the transaction.
Does that make any sense? PayPal is not an escrow service, they can't examine each item before the buyer gets it.
posted on December 12, 2001 06:12:27 PM new
you are not answering the questions. so you want to make assumptions? let's make assumptions then.
let's assume that the buyer is at fault, and he is just making up stuff and that there were never any fraud. buyer is at fault, the situation is where things stand today. everything is okay, seller got his money. okay, end of story. i agree with you, no investigation necessary.
now let's take another assumption, and let's stick to this assumption without interference with another probable timeline. ASSUME this is the scenario:
1. seller has not responded to any of buyer's e-mail
2. buyer has reported fraud to both Ebay, authorities, and PayPal
3. buyer has gathered all documentation related to this fraud
4. buyer attempts to get PayPal to look at this fraud case via a LIMITED 700 CHARACTERS form.
5. paypal classifies the fraud as a "quality of merchandise" issue.
6. paypal claims to have a fraud protection
7. paypal is the only witness to the transfer of money between seller and buyer
8. authorities cannot track seller because buyer cannot afford to pay the $2000 subpoena
tell me what the buyer is supposed to do next IN THIS situation. let's not hear anymore side stories, because we already know about the other scenario.
i know you are not the trusting kind, uaru, and neither am i after this incident. but answer the question. what do you do now if paypal has labeled this case as a "quality of merchandise" issue when it's fraud. all you have to do is answer the question. what do you do if paypal say they look at fraud, but they do not look at this case of fraud because they classified it as a "quality of merchandise issue". remember, in this scenario, the buyer has substantial evidence of fraud. can we make this assumption?
if you can't answer the question, please leave me alone. it's difficult enough in my attempt to get paypal to do an investigation. i don't need to try to do any more convincing. i see that paypal is not responsible for "quality of merchandise" issue, and i agree. however, when it comes to fraud, it is not merely a "quality of merchandise" issue. evidences exist, all paypal has to do is do an investigation. any company with real fraud protection would.
-- arurenu
[ edited by arurenusan on Dec 12, 2001 06:18 PM ]
posted on December 12, 2001 06:30:29 PM new
you know what uaru, since you are so one-sided, let's just ask you a few very simple questions.
1. Does PayPal have Fraud Protection?
2. If yes, what constitute fraud and how do you get in touch with someone at PayPal to look at fraud?
3. If you get someone to look at fraud, should we classify something that involves a U.S. felony as a "quality of merchandise" issue?
knowing you, you will just go and say paypal cannot look at every case, and they are not an escrow service. you will never answer the questions at hand, but merely state the obvious, which does not relate to the subject matter at all. that is your problem. i would feel very sad for consumers if uaru runs a business.
-- arurenu
posted on December 12, 2001 11:31:52 PM newarurenusani would feel very sad for consumers if uaru runs a business.
And I in turn would feel very sad if my business encountered customers like you.
The seller claims they've sent a $1,000.00 diamond to the buyer and produce a receipt showing confirmation of delivery. The buyer claims the seller shipped a rock and demands a refund of $1,000.00. The seller swears he shipped a diamond worth $1,000.00. The buyer swears he received a rock.
The seller has proof that a shipment was made, the buyer acknowledges the receipt of the shipment. The dispute is over what was sent. How do you investigate such a claim? What proof do you required after the fact? You have one person's word against another. While I'm sure you feel PayPal should have the resources to send an investigation team to any and all disputes and strap the buyer and seller to a polygraph machine and do a thorough investigation it isn't going to happen in the real business world, they don't have the resources you want. I've explained before how an escrow works different in that the item being shipped is examined by the escrow service and they won't distribute funds to the seller until the buyer is happy. If the buyer is unhappy with the product the escrow service will not refund the buyers funds until the buyer returns the exact same item in the condition it was when examined by the escrow service.
You are wanting a payment service to operate like an escrow service.
This has become a merry-go-round discussion arurenusan, you feel that PayPal should be accountable for what is shipped and I'm trying (and failing) to point out that when a dispute of the merchandise is raised it simply boils down to the seller's word against the buyer's word. While you might have a solution to such disputes I don't, and I don't know of any other payment vehicle that does other than an escrow service. Even an escrow service has it's limitations too.
Have you bothered to contact eBay with their insurance? Have you bothered to pull up the seller's contact information from eBay? Are you lighting a candle or just cursing the darkness?
PayPal will investigate your claim, contact the seller and, if the seller does not present appropriate proof of shipment, a full refund or other evidence of a satisfactory resolution, PayPal will seek to collect the amount you paid from the seller. PayPal may also restrict the seller's PayPal account. You and other buyers who file claims against the same seller will be entitled to the return of any and all funds PayPal is able to collect from the seller, on a first-come, first-served basis for funds received by PayPal prior to the restriction of the seller's account. RECOVERY OF YOUR CLAIM IS NOT GUARANTEED.
posted on December 13, 2001 04:06:41 AM new
trai
Where in PayPal's TOS did it say that customer service agents would be rude and hateful to its customers? Or that emails from customers asking for help are not responded to? I seemed to have missed that part of the TOS. Maybe I'll read them again and find it. Then I will feel like an idiot becuase I was supposed to expect that kind of treatment. NOT!!
posted on December 13, 2001 07:49:04 AM new
credit card coompanies will fight for you to a certain extent,if you keep repeating the same mistakes,they will ask you to take your business somewhere else.
same if you go to a reputable store and keep returning everything you bot after 3 months or after 3 days,they will ask you not to come back.
there is a guy who posted he uses his scanner 8 hours a day,3 months later he just returned it for a new one ,free.
now just think what happens to his old scanners,they are sold to some ebay seller who deals in store returns and these scanners are resold to someone who thinks they are getting a slightly used scanner for less.
posted on December 13, 2001 10:47:11 AM new
Hi arurenusan,
I as just advised by customer service why you got your refund. It appears the seller worked the issue, not your call.
"He got his money back, but only because the Seller in question was restricted and contacted us to get unrestricted and the Seller asked to refund everybody who made a complaint against him."
The issue was resolved by the seller, which was the party that your issue was with.
posted on December 13, 2001 12:21:37 PM new
Hi arurenusan,
Are you going to go to all of the forums you posted your issue with the seller to advise that the seller is correcting this (as I had advised they would need to?)
posted on December 13, 2001 12:29:59 PM new
uaru,
i see where our differences lie. i do not disagree with you about how hard it is to determine who wronged who. now please listen to my side of the story.
i am asking about paypal's buyer protection. i am asking about how to bring a case of fraud to paypal's attention without having paypal diminish it to a mere "quality of merchandise" issue. i am asking about how i get paypal to look at a case of U.S. felony.
you are more focused on the possibility that the buyer may be a liar, or the notion that paypal cannot look at issues between buyer and seller. i understand all that. i am asking about how to contact paypal for a case of fraud when the seller does not respond and paypal may be in error for it's initial classification of a case.
you are focused on the issue that it is hard to prove whether the seller or buyer is correct in this situation. well, all it takes is a simple investigation. paypal claims to do an investigation for fraud. now how do i convince paypal that this case involving a u.s. felony is fraud? this is what i'm asking.
i never said paypal is an escrow service. i don't expect paypal to look at cases where they are merely about unsatisfactory goods. in fact, i encourage others to use an escrow service.
however, i do expect paypal to honor its claim for buyer fraud protection, and that paypal does not ignore it when a user has taken the necessary steps to claim fraud. for example
1. the seller has not responded and will not respond
2. buyer has contacted authorities
3. authorities have inspected the products and cited a violation of u.s. felony. however, this authority does not have jurisdiction over internet fraud.
4. buyer has reported the fraud to paypal. now paypal, please look at this case -- but paypal diminishes it to a "quality of merchandise issue"
paypal has reversed the charge from the felon. but only after i have exerted much effort to get paypal's attention. remember, prior to this, paypal believes my issue is a mere "quality of merchandise" issue. i have been trying to escalate this case up to fraud, as it should be.
all i wanted is for paypal to recognize fraud, and this is the primary issue at hand. paypal just has to realize that this case is not a "quality of merchandise" issue, its initial decision is wrong, and paypal will do the simple investigation. i am not asking paypal to dispute an issue between buyer and seller, and i have sufficiently documented my case as fraud. you, just as paypal had, have ignored this primary issue i am dealing with all along. you are insisting this is a dispute between the buyer and seller. i then asked you, what is fraud and how do you report a fraud to paypal? how do i get paypal to recognize fraud if they have ignored it in the first place? no one answered that question once. that's all i'm asking.
*when* the primary issue is dealt with, the problem easily manifests itself. and the problem has been solved. it takes some attention to details and non-negligence to fraud. this is what i had wanted all along. this is not a buyer seller dispute issue. it is fraud.
now do you get it? if not, well, i'm just glad that you really are not a paypal employee, otherwise, i'm never seeing my money back.
as a consumer, the amount of effort spent to set things right has been extremely grueling. i do not ever want to go through this process again. some of you already realize this is just a typical example of how businesses run you around. in the end, the correct decision is made.
finally, i have said that if i get my money back, i might send uaru a bottle of that fine champagne. i have decided to reserve my rights not to. if uaru had answered just one of my questions to give me a fair chance to state my points, i would have. i do not think uaru cares anyway and he doubted my sincerity.
thank you all for reading. if anyone else has a legitimate case, please contact me. i can give you advice on how to deal with paypal, and whom to contact should further actions be necessary. it has been a long and rough ride, but it is *almost* finally over.
*almost* - i still have to worry about the felon, who is still on the loose. if he is capable of committing a federal felony, he is capable of doing further harm to me.
posted on December 13, 2001 12:39:15 PM new
paypaldamon,
you meant to tell me that you had access to my records all along? i thought you said you wanted me to forward account information to you?
it doesn't matter. when the money is SAFELY deposit back to my bank account, and when i get in touch with the seller, if he ever responds to my e-mail so i can ask him exactly what happened (because i'm not going to take paypal's words for it), then yes.
so are you really the same entity on all the other boards? do you really enjoy this job? don't answer this question as a paypal employee, this is a personal question.
-- arurenu
