posted on June 19, 2002 10:14:56 AM new
I just wanted to thank you in a forum for helping me get my account unrestricted. I appreciate all you did for me.
posted on June 19, 2002 10:59:21 AM new
Yes. Thank you Damon for telling me 6 months later why my account was frozen for over a week.
And thank you for telling me your were sorry I was having problems with one of my buyers when that one buyer used Paypal to commit mail fraud and when I asked you for help you offered none.
Thank you for allowing Paypal to charge me a service fee for services never recieved.
Thank you for telling me it does not matter if my buyer got his item or not, that if it was not at a confirmed address, they have the right to keep the item and get their money back. (which is mail fraud if they fail to pay for an item recieved by mail)
It's nice to know Paypal does so much to protect a crimal and allow them to do what they do....
posted on June 19, 2002 11:24:10 AM new
Hi kevkaaz,
Your account was restricted for about three days. An email was sent when it was restricted, just as an email was sent when it was un-restricted. The initial email would have advised you why the account was restricted.
You also did not follow the Seller Protection Program on the transaction you keep bringing up. The payment was reversed completely in line with our policy on payments and reversals. You did not ship to a confirmed address, which is why the payment was reversed.
posted on June 19, 2002 12:21:17 PM new
If Mail Fraud actually did occur.....
If he used PAYPAL to actually commit the crime......
You can quote PAYPAL policy till the cows come home but it does not change the fact that PAYPAL's own TOS helped someone commit a crime.
I expect that given the circumstances that not only is a change in the TOS in order but another review of the transaction in question. Particularly if the postal authorites are agreeing with kkaaz.
I am sure that kkaaz, if asked, can provide proof of Postal authorities investigation & outcome.
I am sure that if PAYPAL is confronted with a supeona reguarding the transaction that PAYPAL would be much more co-operative with the seller given the situation.
My only question is then that if a crime can be proven, supeona or not, PAYPAL should take action towards a PROPER resolution. Not one of standing behind a policy that actually helped someone commit the crime.
posted on June 19, 2002 01:15:28 PM newGU1HToMIf Mail Fraud actually did occur..... If he used PAYPAL to actually commit the crime......
You can quote PAYPAL policy till the cows come home but it does not change the fact that PAYPAL's own TOS helped someone commit a crime.
If you accept a credit card payment and ship to somewhere other than the billing address and the buyer disputes the charge the game is over. Do you feel the issuing bank of the credit card has helped someone commit a crime?
What if you ship on receipt of a personal check and the check is returned because of a stop-payment or insufficient funds. Do you feel the buyers bank has helped someone commit a crime?
It helps to keep things in perspective.
kkaaz has admitted he didn't ship to a confirmed billing address. What is so hard to understand about kkaaz being liable and losing when a dispute is filed? Just because kkaaz can't understand it doesn't mean you can't.
Why do you lie? I was not told by e-mail why the account was restricted. Maybe you sent it to the wrong person but I did not get any e-mail why or how to fix it. I had to call and they still did not tell me why. I was told they couldn’t disclose that information at this time. It was frozen as well as the funds in it for way more then three days. Paypal wanted me to fax them all kinds of information to prove I was who had been for about a year. I said no way. I don’t trust Paypal. And I sure don’t believe anything “you” claim.
Then it just came unfrozen when I removed some of my information.
Why don’t you tell the truth Damon? Why do you cover up real issues?
One of your Paypal accounts attempted mail fraud against me. And you did not help me.
GU1HToM
Yes. I offered Paypal all kinds of proof. Paypal does not care.
They allow buyers to commit mail fraud if the buyer cannot prove they are protected.
I proved the buyer got and kept the item. It does not matter where. They got it and then they reversed payment. Mail fraud is mail fraud at every address.
I have an acknowledgment from a USPS mail fraud investigation that says they did that exact thing. I offered it to Damon and he doesn't want it. Paypal is worthless.
They received an item by USPS and then reversed payment after they got it. And they asked Paypal to reverse the payment. Paypal did it without question.
Paypal and Damon NEVER EVER helped me. Damon even keeps claiming I am not protected under seller’s protection, which is a lie. I was told I get sellers protection as a premier account holder. I took Verified Paypal funds from a Verified Paypal account. I deserve protection unless I did not follow certain steps. The steps for reversal protection were not put into the "sellers protection" until Jan 2002. That is a proven fact.
But he says it's ok for Paypal to help someone commit mail fraud based on if the address is confirmed or not. It does not matter. I did not get a chargeback and Paypal did not have to answer to a credit card company.
Paypal honored a reversal, which has been proven to be a lie. The buyer got the promised goods. I shipped the promised goods.
They do not deserve their money back. Paypal has no legal right to take funds out of my account and give them back to the buyer after they got the item
Praise : great item, everything included as listed nice doin business with u
That Ebay feedback from the buyer to me clearly says they got the item. So they do not deserve to get their money back!!!!!!!!
So for Damons great help !!! LOL !!!
I thank him for standing behind the fraudulent users right to comit fraud ???
[If you accept a credit card payment and ship to somewhere other than the billing address and the buyer disputes the charge the game is over. Do you feel the issuing bank of the credit card has helped someone commit a crime? ]
I have to clear that up. I order stuff online all the time. And I don't have it shipped to the same address as my bills. I do not have the right to keep the item if I ask for it to be shipped at an alternate address. I also have a second address listed on my credit card.
And if the credit card knowingly processed a dispute like a user claimed they did not get an item and then later was proven with an official investigation to have received the item, then yes, I would feel the issuing bank has a responsibility to fix the problem and stop the fraud.
Paypal was offered proof of fraud. They don’t care. They chose to not take solid evidence.
And to combat a credit card dispute, credit card companies will look at real proof. If they have a signed receipt and proof the cardholder entered an alternate shipping address, they can deny the claim.
[kkaaz has admitted he didn't ship to a confirmed billing address. What is so hard to understand about kkaaz being liable and losing when a dispute is filed? Just because kkaaz can't understand it doesn't mean you can't. ]
No I did not. I did not admit I did not ship to a confirmed billing address. What I have always clearly said was I shipped to the only address I was given. Paypal would not tell me if it was confirmed or not without a court order. I never said it was not confirmed. It may not be the confirmed address now as the account holder had plenty of time to change that.
I believe I did ship to the confirmed address. I just could not get a court order in two days to make Paypal release it. And I believe the buyer changed their account information after the reversal.
I believe the buyer knew Paypal would allow them to commit mail fraud and do nothing about it. I think they know of the loopholes that Paypal corrected in Jan 2002.
I may have shipped to the confirmed address at that date. I can't prove it was confirmed. The buyer chose to remove the account address off the payment.
And that does not matter. Confirmed addresses are confirmed by credit card billing address. The terms of use said if you want "chargeback" protection, you must ship to the confirmed address.
The terms of the seller’s protection did not require shipping to confirmed address for reversal protection until Jan 2002. I got a reversal and not a chargeback. No credit card were involved (even though the phone rep and Damon both tried to claim it was not their fault and was a credit card company at fault LOL !!! )
My buyer frauded me on October and I only had to follow October terms of use.
I don't care where they get their credit card bills at or even if they own credit cards. I got Paypal funds. I only need protection from Paypal.
I did not get it. Paypal duped me and allowed one of their account to be used to fraud me. And Paypal stands behind those actions.
For that I blame them. For telling me flat out I am “at buyers mercy”, I blame them. For not responding to ANY of my e-mails for the 5 days after the first reversal notice, I blame them. For hanging up on my every time I called and asked to speak to a supervisor, I blame them.
posted on June 19, 2002 04:43:17 PM newkkaazI have to clear that up. I order stuff online all the time. And I don't have it shipped to the same address as my bills. I do not have the right to keep the item if I ask for it to be shipped at an alternate address. I also have a second address listed on my credit card.
And if the credit card knowingly processed a dispute like a user claimed they did not get an item and then later was proven with an official investigation to have received the item, then yes, I would feel the issuing bank has a responsibility to fix the problem and stop the fraud.
If any buyer disputes their credit card bill claiming they didn't receive an item and the merchant can't prove they shipped to the customers billing address(es) the game is over, the merchant loses.
Here's how the investigation goes, "please supply us with proof of delivery." What do you think the credit card issuer does, send out a team of investigators to the buyer's home? Get real.
The credit card issuer nor the merchant bank want to hear, "but, but, he left me good feedback." They don't want to hear, "but, but, I saw him playing with the radio control car." They want to see proof of delivery, they aren't going to send out a team of investigators, and they aren't going to let you moan and groan to their customer service reps on the phone for more than 5 minutes with your present arguments.
I'm not accepting that answer and I'm not hanging up till I get satisfaction on my dispute, you took my money and I want (click)
I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is Paypal got solid evidence the item was shipped and received at the location requested by the buyer. Any credit card company would take in consideration any possible fraud.
A credit card company would not stand by a watch fraud if proven.
To Paypal I offered and they refused:
I have positive Ebay feedback from the buyer saying they got the item and it was as claimed.
I have online USPS tracking and confirmation that was signed.
I have e-mail proof they said they got it.
They said over the phone they got it.
They told a USPS investigation team they got it.
And the sent me $150 money order for part of the item thanks to the mail fraud investigation. They admitted they got it and then reversed payment.
SOLID EVIDENCE OF ATTEMPTED MAIL FRAUD !!!
Any credit card company with that proof would dismiss the claim. Maybe even contact the authorities.
Paypal was never willing to help me track the user. They made no effort to stop them, penalize them, investigate the claim or even take reasonable proof of sales resolution.
And a credit card company would allow me to speak to a supervisor. They have before and I have never had a credit card company hang up on me.
Paypal hung up when ever I asked to speak to a supervisor. They refused to transfer me EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Sorry to say but I proved the buyer got the item. Paypal has no reason to give the buyer back their money.
They only allowed the user to fraud me. And then tried to blame everyone else including a credit card company that was not used.
And for that. All I can do is thank Damon for his worthless compassion and service and thank Paypal for showing me the light early. I may have lost more in the long run.
Paypal is the worst company I have ever delt with.
[ edited by kkaaz on Jun 19, 2002 07:06 PM ]
posted on June 19, 2002 07:39:35 PM new
The fact of the matter that I am pointing out is that if there is proof (kkaaz says there is) to the fact that the buyer gets convicted of mail fraud AND this mail fraud was committed using not just PAYPAL's payment service but PAYPAL's chargeback policy then something is wrong with the way PAYPAL does business
posted on June 19, 2002 07:51:10 PM new
Uaru, it does not take a team of investigators going over to the buyers house to show that the payment shouldn't have been reversed. Sure, if the buyer claims their PayPal account was hacked and his funds were used without their permission to pay kkaaz, then it makes sense.
But if there was no unauthorized use being claimed, it should have been pretty obvious it was a fraudulent claim, without even looking at the feedback/USPS investigation/etc. The buyer asked the item to be shipped somewhere and the seller proved he shiped it to that place, and the buyer is just reversing it because he feels like it.
Maybe PayPal could have technically reversed the payment based on their TOU. But due to the fact that it was completely their decision they should have seen some common sense.
[ edited by andrew123s on Jun 19, 2002 07:53 PM ]
posted on June 20, 2002 12:24:19 AM newkkaazWhat I am saying is Paypal got solid evidence the item was shipped and received at the location requested by the buyer. Any credit card company would take in consideration any possible fraud. A credit card company would not stand by a watch fraud if proven
Damon has told you that you didn't ship to the account holder's confirmed address, he's even gone so far as to tell you that you didn't ship to the same state as the account holder's confirmed address.
If I was to use a stolen credit card I'm sure you'd be able to get a delivery confirmation to verify that I got that nifty digital camera I purchased with that credit card. If you know of any credit card company is going to release you of your responsibilities because you have proof you shipped to a credit card thief you be sure and let us know what company that is.
posted on June 20, 2002 02:21:16 AM new
If I have read the post correctly, the reason why he did not ship to the confirmed address is that it was not included with the payment.
I think we have had this discussion before, when I order anything on the internet and use any payment service (other than PayPal), I have no choice but to give my billing address.
Here is a good example, I have a customer who has a billing address in New York but wants me to ship it to Miami. Now, had he used paypal, the money would have been put in my account and I would either have to refund the customers account, or ship. Since I use a merchant account, and I have the billing address, I just tell him, I will not process the payment unless you understand it will be going to the billing address.
When someone sends a payment through PayPal, the customer should have no choice and the Confirmed address should be part of the address.
Now, uaru, I know I could return the payment, but that is not the issue. That confirmed address should be there from the beginning so that we the seller (the ones that pays PayPal's Salaries) are better protected. If PayPal does not want to put it there, then don't tell us that it is safe.
Damon told me that months after the reversal took place. The account holder had months to change and even re-confirm a new address.
And if it went to another state, why did I ship it there ? Because that is where they requested. I did not ship to an imaginary location. And if they did not get it, why did they leave feedback saying they did? The buyer can't prove they asked me to ship anywhere else. There was no other address listed on the payment. They did not give me an account address and then I chose to ship elseware. I only got one address ever.
I proved the bidder got the item. Even Ebay agreed. If the Paypal account holder did not get item because it was at another state, then the person who sent the payment was not the correct person who bought the item.
If that was the case, they are not allowed to file a buyers complaint. If they are not "buying" something, they are not buyers. if they did not request something to be shipped, then there are no "promised goods"
If that was the case, they did not have the right to file a "buyers complaint for a seller not shipping the promised goods" which is the only thing a "buyers complaint" can be used for.
They would have had to notify Paypal and file an insurance claim with Travels at the time. It would not fall under "consumers protection" of the terms of use or constitute being a "buyers complaint".
But Paypal said a buyers complaint was filed. That means the buyer did not get shipped their promised goods"
I did not meet Damon for months. Paypal offered no help ever by phone or e-mail. They never told me why the buyer filed the complaint or what the buyer said. The buyer never told me they did not get the item or ever want money back. Paypal was very secretive about the whole transaction. They told me I was at "buyers mercy" and contact the buyer. They said those exact words on the phone before hanging up on me.
They only said a "buyers complaint" was filed and I have 7 days to prove my protection by e-mail that they never replied to after the first notice.
[If you know of any credit card company is going to release you of your responsibilities because you have proof you shipped to a credit card thief you be sure and let us know what company that is. ]
Again. Get real. You are talking about someone using a credit card with fake information to comit a fraudulent act.
I am talking about a "verified" Paypal account. With "verified" Paypal funds. They are not the same as a credit card thief. Nor did Paypal have to follow credit card rules.
Paypal had full access to their account and information. Paypal should know who the account holder is and that they are real people. Paypal "verified" them and their funds. Paypal had the right to dismiss their claim as soon as I proved they got the item.
As soon as I proved the buyer gave me that address and no other, Paypal should have reversed the complaint.
As soon as Paypal saw that the sender removed the account address from the payment and claimed to not get it, Paypal should have investigated.
As soon as USPS mail fraud complaint with confessionary payment prove they got it. Paypal should have penalized the account holder for attempting mail fraud.
Look at Damons excuse :
"You did not ship to a confirmed address, which is why the payment was reversed."
No. The payment was reversed because the account holder had to file a false buyers complaint for "seller not shipping the promised goods". Because that never happened. I never failed to ship the promised goods.
I proved by all reasonable means that I did ship the goods, they were as "promised" and they were received at the request location by the buyer.
There is no reversals for not shipping to confirmed address listed as a valid buyer complaint. The complaint is for non-shipping. It does not specify location.
The buyer had to lie and say I did not ship them the item they bought. I proved I did.
The buyer requested the shipping to the address at which they received the item at. They said they got the item.
Paypal was only paid to safely transfer funds one way for item requested. They were not paid to monitor a shipping location. They were not paid to protect me from credit card fraud or a chargeback from a credit card company.
They were not paid to allow someone to commit mail fraud by using their service.
But that is the only thing Paypal did. Paypal allowed my buyer to pay me with Paypal funds and then reverse the payment after the buyer gets the item and at the location they requested.
And they used the US mail service so they attempted to comit mail fraud. I say the word "attempted" as they have confessed by paying $150 so far with an IOU to me that USPS has a copy of. They did not fully get away with it. No thanks to Paypal
And Paypal still stands behind the buyer right to hid from me for months and get their funds back out of my Paypal account.
posted on June 20, 2002 02:48:17 AM newthchase200If I have read the post correctly, the reason why he did not ship to the confirmed address is that it was not included with the payment. I think we have had this discussion before, when I order anything on the internet and use any payment service (other than PayPal), I have no choice but to give my billing address.
I thought we had this discussion before too. A seller must take some sort of action to accept a payment that doesn't include a confirmed billing address. Here are the 3 preference settings PayPal gives sellers.
1. The seller must 'accept' or 'deny' each payment that doesn't include a 'confirmed billing address'. THIS IS THE DEFAULT SETTING
2. The seller may require all payments include a 'confirmed billing address.' A buyer can't send a payment unless it contains a 'confirmed billing address' with this setting.
3. The seller may automatically accept all payments without a 'confirmed billing address'.
The seller has those 3 option, the seller makes the choice, the seller is responsible. This has been in effect since Jan or Feb of 2001.
I can use PayPal or BillPoint, I must give PayPal or BillPoint my billing address to use that credit card, I DON'T have to give the seller my billing address with either service. The difference is the PayPal payment can be refused. The BillPoint payment must be accepted and has to be refunded if the seller decides not to ship to an unconfirmed billing address. The seller is responsible for the BillPoint fees even if he issues a full refund.
PayPal gives the seller the tools, unfortunately they can't force the seller to understand when to use them, how to use them, or why to use them.
posted on June 20, 2002 04:38:23 AM new
PayPal does not give you the tools for a seller to protect against a chargeback. PayPal should give the seller that billing address no matter what the buyer wants.
Instead of quoting TOS and trying to make PayPal look good, look at it logically. All payment services that I use require that I, the seller, have that billing address regardless of the what the buyer wants. I am lucky that I have my own merchant account and do not have to worry about the business practices of this company. See, with a merchant account, I am in control when that card gets charged, not PayPal or my web site, but me.
I am not going to get into the specifics on how a user can refuse or accept an payment. That is not my issue here. My opinion is that if PayPal is going to require a seller to ship to a confirmed address, then that confirmed address must be included with the payment as well as the shipping address. It would save a lot of headaches for sellers.
So quote the TOS all you want, it still does not change the fact that this is one of the problems with them. If they want to be a better services, include that address all the time and then if a seller does not ship to that address, then he is at fault. Until then, all that the current policy is going to do is make more people unhappy and generate more class action law suits.
posted on June 20, 2002 05:43:20 AM newthchase200 PayPal should give the seller that billing address no matter what the buyer wants.
thchase200, I've tried to point out several times that the feature you are asking for above is available if the seller chooses. I don't know how I can make it any clearer.
Log on to your PayPal seller's account, click on profile, click on 'Payment Receiving Preferences' check the box that says, "Block payments from U.S. users who do not provide a Confirmed Address" and check the box to "Block Payments from users who have International PayPal accounts."
Now you have the requirements you are asking for. NOBODY can send you a payment unless it includes a billing address. This option has been available on seller accounts for a year and a half. Isn't this what you are asking for? It's there, it's available, it has been for a long time.
I'm not quoting TOS thchase200, I'm simply telling you what the preferences allow, and what the defaults are.
The default setting is for the seller to 'accept' or 'deny' any payment that doesn't have a confirmed billing address, the seller can make the confirmed billing address mandatory, or the seller simply accept payments without a confirmed billiing address automatically.
posted on June 20, 2002 05:54:09 AM new
Your missing the whole point, there should be no need for a tool, it should be done by default and when the buyer sends the payment, the buyer should not have a choice on whether to send the confirmed address or not.
As a seller, I should not have to figure out how to do something, and buyer should be required to send that payment.
Stop blaming the seller and blame the system, it the system that allows that payment to come without a confirmed address and as a seller I should not have to figure out how to do it.
posted on June 20, 2002 05:57:14 AM newmrfoxy76why does paypal not make this simple...... YOU can ONLY ship to the VERIFIED address and then OFFER "SELLER PROTECTION" to everyone.
Why not make give the seller some freedom to decide and make it like this:
YOU can ship to any address but you'll only qualify for the "Seller Protection" if you send to a VERIFIED address.
Not everyone wants to have an item shipped to their billing address, and the seller should be able to use some common sense on making these calls. How many florist do you think require the flowers be sent to the billing address only? How many camera stores do you think will accept a credit card payment for a $1,000+ camera and ship to somewhere other than a billing address?
PayPal isn't always right, but they aren't always wrong either. The 'confirmed billing' address setup works for any seller than takes the time to understand how it works and what it's for, and when to apply it.
posted on June 20, 2002 06:03:40 AM newthchase200Stop blaming the seller and blame the system, it the system that allows that payment to come without a confirmed address and as a seller I should not have to figure out how to do it.
That's where we disagree. The seller should understand what they are doing, or they shouldn't be accepting electronic payments.
posted on June 20, 2002 06:11:39 AM new
I agree that a seller should be able to make a choice and a seller can make a choice if the information is available. PayPal is the only service that does not supply the billing address automatically given to the seller. CCNow, BidPay, iBill, Yahoo PayDirect, and all others that I have used automatically give us the address. Why Can't PayPal? Regardless of hitting buttons or any other crap. Why Can't they make that address available all the time on all payments and if buyer wants a different address, then that can be there too.
Regardless of if I can do this or that, why can't they give us that address so we can make a better decision.
Answer that question without saying I can turn this on or reject that. This is a simple question.
posted on June 20, 2002 06:23:15 AM new
When did Yahoo PayDirect start automatically supplying billing addresses?
If you use PayDirect's verified address notification in connection with a payment or request for money, and the sender or recipient has a verified address through PayDirect, the sender or recipient will have the option to disclose their verified PayDirect Account address to you.
You'll find that sending your billing address to the seller with BillPoint is optional also, and no preference settings are available to require it either, or deny/accept it on a case by case basis.
C2it doesn't release the billing address in any way shape or form.
posted on June 20, 2002 06:54:43 AM new
Uaru says:
"If I was to use a stolen credit card I'm sure you'd be able to get a delivery confirmation to verify that I got that nifty digital camera I purchased with that credit card. If you know of any credit card company is going to release you of your responsibilities because you have proof you shipped to a credit card thief you be sure and let us know what company that is."
Exactly. If the user is claiming that someone accessed his PayPal account without his permisssion, and sent those funds without the confirmed address, that is one thing and the payment should be reversed. And maybe that is the case. But from what I understand, the buyer didn't claim that at all (he claimed he sent the money and didn't get the items). What I understand happened was:
a. ask the seller for the item to be shipped to an address
b. the seller shipped it to that address
c. the buyer claimed that he never got the items requested (but he did make the purchase)
d. the seller proved he shipped the items where the buyer requested
e. PayPal reversed the payment anyway
posted on June 20, 2002 08:28:38 AM newGU1HToMThe people who understand what they are doing no longer use PAYPAL. (with good reason)
That doesn't explain why PayPal is accepted on 72% of eBay's listings (according to the news article I saw earlier this week.) I think if you look at the shooting star seller's (those with feedback over 10,000) you will find the acceptance rate doesn't support your theory, or maybe you think these high volume sellers don't understand what they are doing.
There are outfits that are using PayPal that even surprised me. Ever heard of Adorama Camera or 47th Street Photo? These outfits have been selling camera gear mail order for decades. There isn't a photo magazine printed in the last 30 years that doesn't have pages of their ads in the back. They also list a few auctions, guess what, even with their long established merchant accounts they are sporting the PayPal logos.
Maybe, just maybe there are some people that use PayPal that do understand what they are doing.
posted on June 20, 2002 09:06:27 AM new
See, I do not have a problem since that I have my merchant account and can not process the card without the billing address, and I only ship to the billing address, unless the shipping address is on the card as well. The is one of the protections that you have when you have a merchant account.
PayPal should give me that same protection and yes, no matter how much of the charge is, I would only ship to a billing address with signature of the card holder required. It is the most complete protection from Chargebacks. You can not issue a chargeback if I have the card holder signature. Even a signature for the guy next door does not protect you for a chargeback, only the card holder signature solves a chargeback.
Why is this so important? Regardless of PayPal, Visa and MasterCard have a file called the TMF or M.A.T.C.H. This file is where Terminated Merchants go after
I think the disagreement is that I am comparing PayPal to a Merchant account and I personally think that PayPal should operate like a merchant account.
posted on June 20, 2002 09:52:08 AM new
andrew123s
you are right on with the A-D
The person committed mail fraud by ordering an item and then reversing payment after they got it.
They even confessed by sending a partial payment after the USPS contacted them.
Paypal was 100% worthless in helping. They never helped one single bit.
I think the buyer even messed up. They did not pay or ask for tracking. I bet they thought they could get away with it. But thanks to other Ebay users and USPS, they got caught.
But thanks to Paypal, they got away with having my item and not paying for it for over 8 months.
uaru
Sorry to say but I was using Paypal / xcom before most people knew who they were. I have been buying and selling on Ebay and Yahoo for over three years. I know how credit card companies work and how Paypal is designed to work. I have also used billpoint, bidpay, yahoo paydirect and money orders. Never had someone fraud me using those services.
On all credit card funded purchases, I would only ship to confirmed billing address as the terms of use said I must do that if I wanted protection from chargeback liability. Paypal funds cannot be charged back.
Paypal is the only company that was used to fraud me online when money was involved. In over three years of online buying and selling.
The problem is Paypal changes so many times over the years. For example, I was confirmed by mail. I got a letter that I had to enter in a code on Paypal’s website. Not by credit card. They don't do that anymore. Now your address can be confirmed by billing address for a credit card..
And Paypal should not allow buyers to remove their confirmed address if shipping is involved. Even if yt
You seem to be changing the point. The point is the buyer made a choice to give me the address they did. They did not choose to give me a different one. They knew what they were doing. As did I. When I got a payment that said Paypal funds, I read the terms of use again. At that time everything referred to shipping only to confirmed address for chargeback protection.
Paypal later changed that.
On my own, I paid extra for better shipping with tracking. I knew the buyer could not chargeback the credit card funds because they did not use a credit card. I knew I could not get a chargeback due to a fraudulent card because no cards were used. So my only responsibility to the buyer was to send the item to the address they requested or arrange to get the item transferred to them with proof.
So I chose USPS with online tracking.
They gave me the address. More then once. And it was the only address I ever saw.
So the only thing I needed to prove was that the buyer got the item they paid for.
I proved that. They confessed several ways that they got the item.
When then made that choice, Paypal should have stepped in. Paypal's own terms of use say they will investigate. They did not.
The buyer gave me that address. Paypal knows that. That item was received at that location. Paypal knows that.
It does not matter if that person even had a confirmed address of not. There was no chance of fraudulent use. Just a fraudulent user making the choice to fraud me. And that user had to use Paypal to do the fraud. They could not contact someone else. It was entirely up to Paypal to look at the evidence given and make a choice. A buyer is not guaranteed a complaint will be honored. They just have a right to file it.
Paypal was shown the buyer gave me that address.
Paypal was shown the payment was for the exact item bid on. It was not an accidental payment.
Paypal was shown the item was shipped to that address.
Paypal was shown someone at that address received the item.
Paypal was shown the person who had access to the Ebay account logged in with a password and left feedback saying the item was received and as I claimed.
Paypal was shown an e-mail from the buyer saying they got the item.
At which time any person with half a brain could see the account holder got what they paid for. At which time, Paypal should have at least denied the claim and not allowed the reversal of funds.
Then Paypal should have penalized the account for attempting fraud.
Then Paypal had the right to inform the authorities.
But Paypal chose to honor their complaint. Even with solid evidence, they made the choice to take funds out of my account to return to the original account without the buyer returning the item.
So the person used Paypal to attempt mail fraud.
It does not matter if they used a confirmed address or not. They chose to give me that address. That is mail fraud. Confirmed or not it's a crime. And Paypal has the right to deny any claim when it is used to commit a crime.
But Paypal chose not to. And Damon chose to say Paypal did the right thing. Damon Cleary said Paypal is ok with reversing a payment if the buyer gets the item but the seller cannot prove they received it at their confirmed address.
And that it does not matter I proved they are pulling a scam. Paypal is not going to stop them or help me.
Paypal clearly said I was at "buyers mercy". Not what should be said from a company I paid to safely transfer funds to me.
Which is a clear warning to other users. This can and does happen. Fraud does happen and even when shown proof of it, Paypal does nothing what so ever to help.
