posted on April 25, 2002 01:29:23 PM new
I have read some of the problems that have happened with paypal, and I have a friend that has used paypal, and purchased a product from a seller. Since the time that order had passed for paypal to get money from the seller had passed, my friend placed a chargeback on his card. He got his money back, but paypal restricted the account and told him that he had to release paypal from any liability from the chargeback and give paypal back the money.
Is this the normal way that they operate and if the he wants his account reopened, he gives the money back, who is responsible now, PayPal or the seller.
posted on April 25, 2002 03:35:40 PM new
If your friend gives the money back to paypal, he can kiss it goodbye. He would do just as well to flush it down the toilet.
If what you're saying is that the 30 days since the purchase date has past - paypal will do nothing to try to recover the money from the seller.
If he really wants his paypal account re-opened, of course, he has no choice.
2 rules of thumb to remember with paypal - #1: They are NEVER the responsible party. And they will do anything and everything to keep it that way. #2: If the seller is a fraud - it's the buyers fault for buying from a fraudulent seller.
To answer your questions, yes, this is always the way they operate. And the buyer is responsible because he sent money to a fraudulent seller. Quite a concept, don't you agree?
posted on April 26, 2002 07:11:43 AM new
this is interesting,and many of us would like to know-
paypal said buyer has 30 days and your cc issuer allows 60 days.
is there anything in paypal terms of agreement which said if we agree to use paypal,we adhere to paypal rules??
does anyone know??
buyer who uses a card issued by a foreign bank,the dispute days are even longer.
posted on April 26, 2002 08:37:15 AM new
reading these forums if this ever happened to me i would.
1) empty my paypal account and make sure paypal could not access by bank account/credit card.
2) then i would file the chargeback as everyone knows they will restrict your account as their 30 days investigation is USELESS because the seller will have emptied their account a LONG time ago.
3) let the account be all messed up as makes no difference to you all your funds have been removed and hopefully recovered by credit card company. who cares if it costs paypal money they make enough off everyone else.
posted on April 26, 2002 09:06:12 AM new
I had a similar problem and my account remains on restriction. I had a problem with a non-delivery of a product. I filed a complaint. The seller immediately contacted me and was willing to refund my money. After he contacted Paypal, they told him NOT to refund the money since I filed a complaint. Paypal encourages the buyer to try to work things out on their own, so this surprised me. I tried to contact Paypal about this, and was told I had to wait the 30 days. In the meantime, I contacted my bank and found out that Paypal had charged my bank account instead of my credit card. (Once you verify, they change the default to your cc!) I immediately stopped payment on the amount. Paypal then sent me a notice putting my account on restriction and then transferred the balance to my credit card. A few days later, they found the seller at fault and issued me a refund. They still have my account on restriction until I give them my life history. I, for the life of me, don't understand why they but an account on restriction for using your right as a consumer to stop payment for non-delivery of goods.
The 30-day seller protection is also a joke. They tell you that you have to wait 30 days to find out whether you will get your money back, while at the same time telling you they can't do a thing after 30 days. Once you wait, you're out of luck for any further action. Interesting policy! (A bank or credit card company will immediately credit your account pending investigation. Now that's real buyer protection!)
Bottom line... this is indeed the way Paypal normally operates.
posted on April 26, 2002 10:37:03 AM new
you have to wonder why people continue to use them with such a policy it does not help no one but paypal............
posted on April 26, 2002 11:45:47 AM new
mrfoxy76 many paypal users are not aware of the problems that can happen, and when it does they pop up on message boards like this one looking for help. There must be thousands of complaints because every message board dealing with auctions is full of them with new popping up daily. I know many sellers from card shows who praised paypal now warning users after they were shafted by them.
posted on April 26, 2002 12:03:47 PM new
I too was a loyal PayPal user for 2 years until they gave me the shaft. I will never use PayPal or any company affiliated with them again. Thanks PayPal for your NON-PROTECTION!!!!!
posted on April 26, 2002 12:42:15 PM new
Thank you for the input, so comes the next question in this mess, the buyer has placed a chargeback and received the credit on the card. However, the account is restricted until the buyer releases PayPal from any liability and gives PayPal the money. Also, the seller has received the chargeback notice from PayPal asking for the seller to reinburse PayPal as well.
If both parties give PayPal the same amount, does PayPal get to keep the second payment.
P.S. I think Damon would have all the answers here.
posted on April 29, 2002 12:25:14 PM new
Well, since Damon seems to be ignoring the entire board these days...
Theoretically, if the seller were to give the money back to PayPal, the buyer's account should be unrestricted immediately, and everyone SHOULD be even. You didn't mention if PayPal has restriced the sellers account as well(?)
If your friend (the buyer) gives paypal the money back, AND the seller gives paypal the money back - the buyer should be reimbursed, and everyone's account should be unrestricted - everyone should be back where they were before the transaction began.
If your friend believes that the seller IS going to give paypal back the $$ - I would have them hold off on doing anything. That 1 transaction should clear everything.
posted on April 29, 2002 01:13:07 PM new
Maybe your friend should report the extortion procedures employed by PayPal. Your friend did everything that is within their right to do. PayPal has absolutely no recourse except to get the money from the seller. If you returned an item to Walmart and Walmart didn't refund to your credit card, and you did a chargeback, the legal consequences of Walmart trying to extort the money back from you would be mind boggling.
If the seller and buyer but give the money back to PayPal, don't hold your breath awaiting reimbursement and unrestriction. Also, don't expect being notified about the seller submitting payment either. It would be just a win-win situation for PayPal, until they got caught red-handed, then it would become a happy "oversight"
[ edited by mlecher on Apr 29, 2002 01:17 PM ]
posted on April 29, 2002 01:42:42 PM new
I would agree that the problem is between PayPal and the Seller. At this point, however, PayPal insists that if they do not get money back from the Seller, then the buyer will have to reinburse PayPal, or they will not get the account unrestricted. I showed the buyer the comments on this forum and told him not give PayPal anything. Besides, who knows, they may not be in business much longer.
I have downloaded and read the PayPal User agreement and I do agree with club1man. There is a clause that when you press the Accept or Agree button, you have just waived your right to a lawsuit and have to settle for binding arbitration (I am not an attorney). That should be unconstitional to waive a persons rights like that. There is nothing in the terms and conditions that state they have the right to charge a persons card without the knowledge and ok of the buyer and if there where to do that, it would be fraud.
posted on April 30, 2002 07:19:22 AM new
i wouldnot be surprised paypal will someday revise its business plan to ask some sellers to have merchant accounts and chargebacks will hit the seller directly instead of through paypal,except for those small sellers who dont sell much.
PROPAY is like that,if you want to process more than 1000 dollars worth of charges per month,they ask for a reserve,so they will always have some of your money in case of chargebacks,but then porpay is owned by a bank.
posted on April 30, 2002 11:58:36 AM new
Mandatory arbitration: PayPal cannot bar class-action lawsuits. In January, this was declared "illegal and unconscionable" by the U.S. District Court, Northern District of California (Darcy Ting et al. v. AT&T). It is a violation of California's Consumer Legal Remedies and Unfair Competition Law.
posted on April 30, 2002 12:23:14 PM new
PAYPAL CHANGES ITS BUSINESS PLAN AND TOS WHENEVER THEY FEEL LIKE IT.....ITS WORTHLESS ANYWAY AS THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE TOS LAID OUT. SO BASICALLY NO POINT IN HAVING TOS.
posted on April 30, 2002 09:49:42 PM new
The fact of the matter is PAYPONZI is gonna screw you one way or another. I found that out.
By the way I heard the reason Damon hasn't been here is that he's cashed in his stock and is opening a rehab center for payponzi customer service reps that are dealing with robotic tendencies due to their employers brainwashing sessions,which is the only training they get.
posted on May 2, 2002 10:18:26 PM new
Hi andrew123s,
I have been out of the office, so I haven't been able to respond. I am still catching up on emails/posts.
The chargeback issue (from a buyer) really depends:
a) if the buyer did not file a Buyer Complaint before filing a chargeback, then their account could be restricted
b) if the buyer filed a chargeback, and the seller could show proof that the item was sent (read Seller Protection Program), then the account would probably be restricted.
c) did the buyer file a chargeback for unauthorized credit card usage?
Why? Because the seller showed proof of shipping, yet the buyer still filed a chargeback. The restriction would remain unless the buyer could prove they shipped the item back.
There are several variables here that I do not have access to. The above reasons are the reasons (that I am aware of) that a buyer could have their account restricted. I would need the buyer email address before I could assist.
So if the buyer does not put a complaint in, then the account can be restricted. However, if the complaint is put in after 30 days, then the complaint is not valid. In this case, if the buyer does a chargeback, will the account be restricted and will the buyer have any responsiability if PayPal can not get the money back from the seller.
posted on May 3, 2002 09:31:56 PM new
Damon... I filed a complaint and then filed a chargeback. My account was immediately put on restriction. The seller was then found to be at fault. This seems be following all the rules you stated... but my account is still on restriction... why??
posted on May 4, 2002 06:17:58 AM new
no one on this board seems to agree with me-a lot of these buyer/seller sqabbles have to do with buying from individual on a cyberauction site.
you dont know the seller,you have not seen or examine the merchandise,neither has ebay seen the merchandise or know much about the seller,so buyer does take a big chance of getting no satisfaction.
why do buyers keep flocking to ebay,one good reason is they think they can steal that stuff-they think they know more than the seller,they think seller is willing to sell for a lot less becasue his time is FREE.
they think seller has ways of getting these merchandise for free and willing to let anyone have them for very little.
truth is sellers have an advantage over these buyers,they know their merchandise ,they know how much it is worth,and they know the condition as they can see it with their own eyes while buyers are just reading the description and looking at a photo.
how many customers file chargeback against neiman marcus or nordstrom or marshall field or saks fifth avenue or walmart or bestbuy??
issues are usually resolved before they reach that stage.
so dont come to this board and cry and cry,ask yourself why do you buy on ebay??
you buy because you want to take a chance,and here comes this big chance of getting disappointed,ripoff,scammed.
I agree with partly regarding the issues here. Chargebacks with brick and mortor location are very small for one main reason and that is you get the inspect the product before you can buy it.
With the internet, regardless of an auction or a web-site, you do not get to meet the person placing the order. I would say that when chargebacks are placed, regardless of paypal or a merchant account, it comes from three reasons. Either the buyer did not get the merchandise, it was not what the buyer wanted, or he no longer wants it (either they do not want it or forgot to tell the spouse that they ordered it.
The problem with PayPal is the limitations that place on the buyer. If you place a chargeback without filing a buyer complaint, they will restrict your account (as per their terms and conditions). They also state in their terms and conditions that you do not give up your credit card protection when you fund your purchases via the credit card. Well, if I do a chargeback and have not filed a complaint and you restrict my account. Isn't that trying to force me to give up my credit card protection.
Let me give you a case study on this. Currently on Yahoo Auctions, there a seller that is selling Sony and Apple laptops stating that it is a pre-sale auction and that you will receive your laptop with in 30 days after the auction is closed. If you do not receive your laptop, they will refund your money. When looking at the feedback (which is not that great), you can see that he is shipping late and is currently having a paypal problem. I have not talked to this person, but looking at the feedback your can assume that this is due to buyer complaints and the paypal buyer complaint rule that you have file a complaint within 30 days after making the purchase.
So lets say that you have purchased a laptop from this person. You have waited 40 days and still have not received your item. It would be a waste of time to file a buyer complaint since paypal will not do anything about this. You try to contact the seller and he basically has blown you off. You file your chargeback notice with the credit card. The chargeback goes to PayPal and they credit your card, but they also restrict your account saying that you have to give the money back that you just charged back.
To me, it looks like that they are trying to go around your buyer protection and the chargeback. Also, if I need paypal and I give the money back to paypal to unrestrict the account, where does the money go, back to the seller or in some PayPal slush fund. Now, is the seller responsible to get the money back to me. I would imagine that the seller would say that if the money does not go back into his account, this would be a transaction between the buyer and paypal and the seller is not responsible for that transaction. It would be a mess.
PayPal wants to limit chargebacks and does not want buyers to chargeback the card and here is why. If you look at the terms of a merchant account, the term M.A.T.C.H. or Terminated Merchant File (TMF) comes up. This a file that Master Card and Visa use when approving or removing the rights to process credit cards. Part of the agreement is that you say you will limit your chargeback amounts to usually less than 1% of the total volume that you do. If you do go higher, Master Card can place you on the TMF and remove your processing rights. Once you get on the TMF, it is extremely hard to process cards. The last thing that PayPal wants is to get on the TMF. If this were to happen, then paypal would be out of business.
If PayPal wants to limit chargebacks, then make a couple changes to the User Agreement and here is what they can do.
1.) Change the amount of time that you have to file a buyer complaint. Make the amount of time 60 days instead of 30. This is not for a quality of goods, but for delivery. If PayPal were to get into quality of goods disputes, then it would be extremely hard.
2.) Some customers see the buyer complaint as a way to force a seller to ship thier item faster. In the case of the Yahoo guy I mentioned above, I am sure that this is the case. In fact, I have talked to some sellers that show a complaint being placed 30 minutes after the payment is sent. PayPal should not punish slllers for buyer complaints, but Buyers and Sellers can use as a to resolve a dispute. If PayPal shows that a seller is not resolving the complaints, then restrict the account. Restricting an account because you have received complaints, just causes more complaints.
3. When you restrict an account, restrict it all the way. Do not allow payments to continue to come in as the person with the restricted account is working to get it unrestricted. When PayPal allows payments to continue to come in all they are doing is creating more complaints.
4.) If Paypal is going to not unrestrict an account, do not lock it so the person can not get into the account. How can a person resolve any chargeback issues, if the account is locked and can not dispute chargebacks. Also locking an account makes it look like paypal is trying to hide something.
If PayPal is going to be successful and be a service that we all want to use,then these are things that will have to be addressed. PayPal needs to understand that we are the customers and that they do work for us, and not that we work for them. They also need to know that the money in our accounts is our money, not theirs.
The one thing that I have noticed is that Damon has not answered any of these questions here and these are the questions that I would love to PayPal's answer.
1.) If I put a chargeback in and have not filed a complaint, why is the account restricted.
2.) If the customer agrees to pay back PayPal to get the account unrestricted, where is that money going to.
3.) If the customer pays back PayPal and the seller covers the chargeback, where did this money go.
This is not an attack on PayPal, this is just a request for information that is not clearly covered in their terms and conditions.
posted on May 4, 2002 12:46:34 PM new
Good question, why would PayPal tell the seller not to issue the refund. You would think that they would so the complaint could be closed out.
posted on May 4, 2002 01:44:40 PM new
Last month I decided the seller was never going to respond or ship my merchandise. I filed a complaint with PP and forgot about it. About a month later I rec'd e-mail from PP stating buyer was at fault & refunded my $. I would have been delighted, but the seller had finally shipped my item. After having read this board the last couple of years, I decided to contact the seller myself. She asked and I agreed to just quiety PP the $ back to her. I let her decide how I should give back her $, and she chose PP, just don't list as "goods" under type. We resolved this ourselves within a few minutes.
I would do business with her again and she is also happy.
lurking is not an option
posted on May 5, 2002 10:43:00 AM new
In my case the seller was also easy to work with. Although I could never get a response out of him at first, once I filed a complaint he contacted me. He was willing to give me a refund, but Paypal advised him not to. He asked twice, and got the same answer twice. I still don't understand why they advised him not to, especially after having Paypal encourage the buyer to work it our directly with the seller. I've tried to get's Damon's help, but all he does is quote policies. (None of which tell me why Paypal told the seller not to give me a refund.) It's a shame that he chose to act that way. A simple correction on their/Damon's part would have made a customer happy, and have one less person on this board complaining. I think that's the real issue here... Paypal doesn't get customer service.
posted on May 6, 2002 04:27:24 AM new
From what I can see, PayPal would tell the seller not to refund since the buyer complaint would still be open, the seller could still be found at fault, and PayPal could still take the amount from the seller even though the same amount was already refunded (the buyer complaint system probably doesn't take refunds into account).
[ edited by andrew123s on May 6, 2002 04:28 AM ]
posted on May 6, 2002 09:25:33 AM new
That's the reason I suspected as well. The problem comes when you file a complaint. Paypal encourages the buyer to try to work things out with the buyer. I did, but Paypal didn't want him to settle. When I contacted Paypal, all they would say is that I have to wait 30 days and there is no guarantee that I will get my money. After reading everyone's experience, it was then I stopped payment. If Paypal simply allowed the seller to refund the money, which the seller can only do through Paypal, none of this would have happened!
(I really think Paypal is making money on the 30 day float. Look at the people running the place. They are experts at making money in investments... not in customer service.)
posted on May 6, 2002 09:59:45 AM new
In my opinion, there should be no reason that that PayPal would tell the seller not to refund a customer. It would close out the case faster and the customer would be taken care of and off of the books.
Reading the TOS, it would seem that PayPal does not even follow their own rules regarding restrictions and chargebacks. I am being it get the idea that PayPal does not want to follow the same rules for everyone. Good example is that I asked for some simple answers. Damon's answer was that he would need to have the customer's e-mail address. My questions is why do you need the address. The questions asked above are quick answers that you could look up quickly give the rule that you follow. All customers should be treated the same and not by the one that screams the loudest
