posted on April 22, 2002 09:00:54 PM new
Well folks we went to arbitration on the 21st and 22nd of January and the decision is due at the latest on the 4th of April. As I sit here today, I'm asking myself "WAS IT WORTH IT". Well yes and no.Yes, because most of my 60 yrs. I've believed that when you feel your in the right you fight for a principle, as most of you have. We don't know whether we won our case yet, but I do now know that principles come at a high price.The agony that Hanna and I have gone through in the past 14 months is priceless. We have over 95k in credit card debt,14k of which went to the American Arbitration Association,(in a court it would have cost less than 1k) over 4k traveling to San Francisco. Legal fees have exceeded 100k and I still owe my attorneys over 30k. A year and a half ago we were trying to prepare to retire. Thanks to paypal we now are looking at possibily losing our home as well as everything else we've worked for all or lives. Paypal has filed a protective order on the case,I guees they don't want you to be able to make a judgement for yourselves. Ignorance of their ways is power. If a court finds me in violation of this rediculious order then so be it. At least I will go to jail knowing I have done my best to warn my fellow Americians of the possible pitfalls of doing business with them. I have come to the realization that terrorism does not just rest in the hands of bin laden,(he will kill you),but Peter,Max,Reid and the staff of paypal will make you feel like like a bomb has leveled you. By the way, when Peter Thiel was suppose to testify at my hearing he didn't have the intestinal fortitude(GUTS) to show up.
Well the verdict is in. Paypal forced me into arbitration and I lost. Well I did get $5,000.00 taken of the $18,976.29 under the seller protection program, which means I only owe payponzi $13,976.29 + $784.97 interest and $312,213.50 in attorney fees and $26,703.91in paralegal fees.So much for doing business with them
In the near future I will publish the entire contents of the case so that if anyone is interested they can judge for themselves.
posted on April 23, 2002 05:13:44 AM new
forgive my ignorance but it seems crazy to go to court with paypal or any other company and cost $300k+ in fees when the size of the funds at stake were much less....unless you had no choice?
posted on April 23, 2002 06:40:24 AM new
can you summarise for us what this is all about??
from my limited experience dealing with lawyers,they are like sharks and i would rather take the loss and not swim with sharks.
once i was taken by a merchant and several lawyers i talked to all come up with a proposal so they can EAT AND PAY THEIR RENT.
i am just the means to serve their ends- which i repeat ,is to EAT AND PAY THEIR RENT.
posted on April 23, 2002 10:14:58 AM new
club1man -
I think many of us are anxiously awaiting your entire story. PayPal is a damn outrage!
When you take it down to it's nuts and bolts, it kinda feels like you and your family were doing well, then you decided to do business with this on-line company (paypal) - and the end result of that decision (and anyone who has read this board has made that same decision) was your financial ruin.
I sincerely wish the outcome would have been different for you.
posted on April 23, 2002 11:33:11 AM new
I don't wish anyone to have to deal with lawyers and I feel for you on that Stoney.
club1manIn the near future I will publish the entire contents of the case so that if anyone is interested they can judge for themselves.
I have followed what you've shared thus far on this message board. Maybe if you shared more about 'egold.com' and how it works in detail and your affiliation with it others might have more understanding of what went wrong. I think it was a very poor decision on your part to accept PayPal to fund these numbered accounts. If I'm able to steal a credit card and get an egold broker to accept that and deposit those funds in a numbered offshore account I'm home free.
I've looked at egold.com out of curiosity, and I can't help but notice that brokers funding egold accounts who will accept credit cards (most won't) are very security minded. They require a rubbing of the credit card and photocopy of both sides of the credit card along with a photocopy of a drivers license and telephone statment photocopy are sent. Like this credit card submission form. For you to accept PayPal payments to fund these numbered egold.com accounts when others feel required to employ such extreme safeguards against fraud was a big mistake.
posted on April 23, 2002 01:21:42 PM new
Mrfoxy,
To answer your question we had NO choice. We were forced into arbitration. I was trying to settle our differences and had refused their one sided offers, which mainly included that I not reveal anything that happened. This would have prevented me from telling others my experiences and how to prevent it from happening to them.
What I found yesterday was that they needed to have 3 lawyers and two paralegals to prove their case. Their case according to their primary lawyer was "a simple contract dispute".
Being forced to seek legal counsel,after I found out they had started proceedings against me, I hired an attorney in Texas, because the arbitration was in California I needed one there also.
This simple contract dispute resulted in tens of thousands of pages of documents.
Their contention was simple, if you used a credit card to send someone money and they sent it to someone else who sent it to another,all through their accounts I was responsible to pay paypal back. Also if paypal took a credit card that failed the address verification,which happened twice on one account I was responsible. Now answer this one, one of my customers sent 3 seperate transactions, all with the same credit card the first transaction was reversed, but the others were not.
Basically what ever happens, paypal is not responsible.They operate outside of banking regulations and do not protect anyone, but themselves. This I believe is against consumer law because as a merchant they have a responsibility to their customers.
The arbritation process is, to say the least, a violation of a persons right to a fair trial. The arbitrator in our case was a well known San Francisco corporate lawyer. Because I did not have a lawyer at the time, I had no choice. To my dismay, after returning from arbitration in San Francisco, I found on the internet where a corporate lawyer from New York wrote that arbitration favors the big corporations 95+% of the time.
I am starting a campaign to see that people world wide will not be subjected to these and other paypal injustices. Help me by contacting me at [email protected].
posted on April 23, 2002 01:31:42 PM new
I THINK THE BOTTOM LINE IS PAYPAL ARE NOT REGULATED AND DO WHATEVER THEY WANT WHENEVER THEY WANT. That is basic root of most of the users problems. Also their terms of conditions change soo often that its insane. It takes something like this to make you aware of the above.
posted on April 23, 2002 01:42:16 PM new
Uaru The one thing the arbitrator ruled in our favor was that e-gold is a tangible item. People can invest in physical gold and also speculate on the gold market.
As far as the other market makers they also use to accept paypal but stopped about the same time I was having my problems.
Looking back I believe it was not so much a poor decision as it was an unknowing one. Paypal,at first was so pleased to have my business that they gave me a "RED CARPET" account. Then they told me my problems were that I was dealing with e-gold which they already knew.
posted on April 23, 2002 01:47:30 PM new
Hi mrfoxy76,
You can see this on the BBB site.
Currently PayPal is licensed and regulated as a money transmitter in three U.S. states, has applied for licenses in 15 other states, and is preparing applications in an additional 8 jurisdictions.
posted on April 23, 2002 02:29:48 PM new
club1man said.
We were forced into arbitration. I was trying to settle our differences and had refused their one sided offers, which mainly included that I not reveal anything that happened. This would have prevented me from telling others my experiences and how to prevent it from happening to them.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
if you accept their one sided offer,will you come out whole??
posted on April 23, 2002 07:13:44 PM new
Those offers were over a year ago. I could not have accepted them and live with it knowing that I believed it to be wrong. Would you make an agreement knowing other people would be hurt by your silence---not me. My principles can't be bought and I'll pay the price I guess.
posted on April 23, 2002 08:59:19 PM new
I admire your courage. I am sorry about the outcome. I have yet to hear of a favorable outcome where the little guy takes on the corporate giant, whether it is ebay or paypal.
Unless you have millions of dollars it is probably not wise to take these corporations to court. It seems like judges will always rule against you.
posted on April 24, 2002 09:04:04 AM new
third party payments is nice for both buyers and seller when it comes to small transactions,fast and easy.
of course what is a small transaction-5 to 500 dollars??
somefolks dont want to go thru paypal for a 5 dollars transaction because proportionately the paypal fee is too much,some folks may consider any amount over 50 to be large transaction.
find your own comfort level.many of us are newbie retailers and anxious to complete sales,thats how we get taken.
if you are conducting high volume or high dollar transaction,it is better to apply for a merchant account where you get all the cc data and support from your merchant provider.
posted on April 24, 2002 12:38:34 PM new
You can pretty much bet if he didn't even have the number of states correct, he's going to need to look up their names.
Also Damon, when you say 'licensed and regulated as a money transmitter' - Regulated by whom? And whomever this is, is this where we file complaints about your practices? Is this where we file complaints about the injustices levied against people like Club1man? That he is now responsible for almost $350K for your companies lawyers for a 'SIMPLE CONTRACT DISPUTE'? $350K?!?!? I would hate to see what a more complex case would cost!
PayPal is going to need way more than Damon for damage control if they don't try to show that there are actually human beings running their company & pay at least some of their own legal fees. (They obviously haven't tried to prove it yet - when their CEO doesn't even show his cowardly face at the trial).
ANYONE with a media contact needs to get this story to them... They could have a field day - showing that because Stoney decided to be the decent man that he is, and stand up for what he believes in - he is now facing financial devastation largely because this gutter-scum company racked up $350K in legal bills for a simple contract dispute...
...That it cost him nearly A HALF MILLION $$, because he decided to do business with PayPal.
posted on April 25, 2002 09:29:00 PM new
I have been reading your web site since then and was a happy paypal user, but I haven't change my mind to stop using paypal. But until 3 weeks ago, My account has been restricted for no reason!! Now I am very disappointed on Paypal and their customer service! I have been thinking about file a lawsuit to paypal, but it won't be able to be success because of limited funds.
But I finally got an idea, If there be a chance to have a web page to let all disappointed paypal users to come together and collect their signatures & comments, and send it all together to the Court or whoever, then file a lawsuit together against paypal. In that way, all the required attorney fees, legal fee will be shared by a large group of unhappy paypal users. Is this a good idea?
posted on April 26, 2002 11:23:45 AM new
most lawsuits benefit the lawyers,they get paid no matter who wins or loses.
dont use paypal for big payment.
open a mechant account and take cc direct
posted on April 26, 2002 02:37:05 PM new
Let the Lawyers have the money. As long as they were successfull enough to get a settelemnt big enough to shut them down that is fine. I doubt they could do that.
posted on April 26, 2002 02:49:02 PM new
go to this site--http://www.senate.gov/senators/index.cfm
I have already emailed 25 senators and will email the rest tonight. If all our senators and congressmen get a hundred emails on this maybe it will start something. I paln on starting on congress tomorrow. Monday it will be the attoney general and all the states AG offices. I personally talked to sen. Chet Edwards and he has a case opened on them.
posted on May 4, 2002 11:22:52 AM new
Apparently what we have here is a bunch of whining malcontents that were silly enough to believe that a company like PayPal would take care of them, never do them wrong and that they could place their life savings in the hands of a financial transfer company and everything would be alright. Try that with any similar company and they will disappoint you eventually. You control what you use and how you use it. If you are foolish enough to trust PayPal to keep your money indefinitely, with all their rules and penalties, you basically deserve what you get. club1man's ridiculous life ruining battle for "what is right" is nothing more than a demented self righteous unwinable battle to undo his uncontrolled financial dealings. Hopefully, people new to all this will not read all this nonsense and decide PayPal is not a viable or useful way to receive payments. Use the service to receive moderate payments, get the money out when it lands in your account. Period. Do it that way and you will not end up in this forum with no money, no life, ruined finances and a demented view of financial transfer services like PayPal.
posted on May 4, 2002 04:35:05 PM new
Well MrPPs As I said before I'm trying to warn people what can happen to them by dealing with such a company. They are unregulated and are doing anything they want with peoples money. My case proves that if they can't steal it from your credit card or bank account, then they will force you into arbitration, which is expensive and usually goes for the big guy, as I found out. You comment on facts, but do you know them? I had my money sent to my bank account nightly. They are the ones who accepted the bad credit cards I didn't. They lied under oath and presented false documents. Accounts that I showed as verified were changed. Dates don't lie. They claimed I got "excellent" customer service, if I did I must be the only one that ever has.
If you think I'm whining So be it I hope it prevents some one else from going through the same thing.
By the way you sound like you work for Payponzi. If not you should.
posted on May 9, 2002 05:05:44 PM new
I think I found out why the arbitrator ruled against us. This comes from his web page.
Our client list includes many of the most widely recognized firms in the San Francisco Bay Area, as well as throughout the nation and the world. Here is a small sample of our clients:
Adaptec, Inc.
Alcatel USA, Inc.
American Express Company
Ariba, Inc.
Banc of America Securities LLC
Bear, Stearns & Co., Inc.
California Commission of Judicial Performance
California Micro Devices
Chemoil Corporation
Citicorp Real Estate, Inc.
City and County of San Francisco
Esprit de Corp
Hambrecht and Quist Group
Hewlett-Packard Company
Kmart Corporation
Longs Drug Stores
Major League Baseball Properties
Merrill Lynch & Company
Morgan Stanley Dean Witter
Oakland Raiders
Pacific Gas and Electric Company
Prudential Securities, Inc.
R.J. Reynolds
Sega Enterprises
Sotheby's, Inc.
Starbucks U.S. Brands Corp.
State of California
Sutro & Co., Incorporated
Taco Bell
Technology Crossover Ventures
The Charles Schwab Corporation
The Gap, Inc.
The Good Guys
Thomas Weisel
Time, Inc.
Transamerica Corporation
U.S. Trust Corporation
United Business Media
Valley Media, Inc.
Wells Fargo Bank
posted on May 9, 2002 05:40:48 PM new
What, no PayPal? I guess he hasn't updated his web page in a while. I thought arbitration was supposed to be facilitated by an 'impartial third party'? How impartial can this guy be? What's the chances you're going to put on your 'reference list' a company that you readily rule against during arbitration?
posted on May 17, 2002 11:49:45 AM new
Paypal IS associated with the AmericanArbitration Association and the arbitrator IS associated with them and I'm not. What does that tell you.
posted on May 17, 2002 02:08:53 PM new
it does not tell us much as to what happened??
you started a business selling gold,you buy wholesale and sell retail to customers who use paypal to make payment (average 500 dollars ).some sent you checks and money orders.
you said you have found a niche in the market when you did some research and found some buyers out there would like to use paypal and your competitors do not accept paypal.
so you started using paypal as a form of payment,you had a paypal make payment button on your website.
you get red carpet treatment from paypal based on the business you generated.well,what is meant by red carpet treatment?many of us use paypal,the only carpet treatment some of us received is to have the carpet yanked from us??
you said you talked to paypal big honcho and ask them to make some preference changes in their credit card verification process.
then you said there were 71 chargebacks,then you talked paypal in allowing the charges passed to you so you can make the decision of go and no go based on your knowledge of your customers.
then one day you received a phone call from paypal and they are suing you.
the rest i guess is history.
please feel free to add/alter or delete the above narrative,as i put this together based on your past postings and may not be accurate.
but the questions remain- gold has been scraping the bottom for many years and many die hard gold bugs have drifted into comas.
so what brings back this renewed interest in gold investing,i visited the e gold site and likeyou said,it is an investment and a payment service.
cool!!does it mean someone uses his credit card to buy gold and then have it marked to market daily and use it as you and i would use cash in the bank to buy grocery and nintendo??
may be you can shed some light into this -what kind of individual take to this service??
have they made money using this form of investment??
how is it different or better than saying buy and hold gold coins??
may be if you walk us through this whole process of gold investing,we can have a better understanding of your business,your role in playing the middleman and how it resulted in 71 chargebacks and finally the fallout between this cosy turned sour relationship with paypal??
last but not least,do you have a merchant account to accept credit card??if you do not,have you ever considered applying for one??
what made you decide to choose to use paypal versus having your own merchant account?
it sounds like at one point,you are asking paypal to pass you the cc data for you to decide is one of the features offered if you have your own merchant account.
no offense,but just trying to understand what is going on.this is probably the most interesting paypal episode on this board.
[ edited by stopwhining on May 17, 2002 02:11 PM ]
