micmic66
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posted on December 26, 2003 01:49:37 PM new
Sold an Accordion a couple of weeks ago. Really nice, really old and really shiny. Had NO IDEA if it was in working condition or not so I state the following in my description...
"may or may not need a reconditioning, my eyes are untrained in this area"
Turns out the Accordion does not work properly and now the woman wants a complete refund and is threatening to do a Paypal chargeback ...around $100
What do I do?
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CBlev65252
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posted on December 26, 2003 02:30:40 PM new
NO REFUNDS WITHOUT HAVING THE PRODUCT BACK IN YOUR HANDS. No exception! I though PayPal didn't do charge backs on items that are claimed to be "not as described." Do you have proof she rec'd it like the DC number or such?
I really hate people like this. Keep a copy of your auction since it states that the item may not be working properly. You would have been better off to state: I don't know if this item works or not. You are buying this item "as is".
I'm sure someone will come along that can shed more light on this. Fluffy comes to mind. 
Cheryl
http://tinyurl.com/vm6u
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auctionACE
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posted on December 26, 2003 02:39:21 PM new
You put in a quasi as-is disclaimer so you shouldn't have to give any kind of refund at all. Be prepared for a possible negative feedback and return the favor.
-------------- sig file ----------- *There is no conclusive evidence that life is serious*
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toolhound
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posted on December 26, 2003 04:04:37 PM new
"may or may not need a reconditioning, my eyes are untrained in this area"
sounds to me like you are talking about the outside of it not the internal working parts. In my opinion you owe them a refund including shipping both ways.
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micmic66
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posted on December 26, 2003 04:09:44 PM new
Toolhound, what the hell are you talking about?
I described the conditiopn as "Really nice, really old and really shiny'
Dosent that say cosmetic condition is great but the working condition is unknown?
No offense, but you and the winner of this acordion have a tough time understanding printed English text...
[ edited by micmic66 on Dec 26, 2003 04:11 PM ]
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pointy
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posted on December 26, 2003 04:16:49 PM new
Sounds to me like you really weren't clear enough in your description. Didn't you at least try to see if it worked while you had it? I think you should have stated I'm not sure if it's working properly....selling as is. But you did give a sort of disclaimer. I wouldn't be so quick to give a refund. I imagine shipping is high, especially in comparison to a $100 selling price. Why don't you bring to the buyer's attention that you did state that it could need a reconditioning, and ask them to bring it to a music shop for an estimate on repair cost. If you're really clueless about these things, it's possible the repair may be less than the postage.
[ edited by pointy on Dec 26, 2003 04:18 PM ]
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auctionACE
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posted on December 26, 2003 04:17:06 PM new
Any item of this sort has to have an auction item as-is phrase and this one did. These buyers have to learn that ebay is an auction where you gamble on things like working condition.
-------------- sig file ----------- *There is no conclusive evidence that life is serious*
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toolhound
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posted on December 26, 2003 04:49:07 PM new
micmic66 , I thought you wanted someones opinion. You just wanted someone to agree with you. You stated "my eyes are untrained in this area" that to me would mean what you can see. Maybe you should have tried my arms are broken and I can't pick it up to see if it plays.
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auctionACE
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posted on December 26, 2003 04:56:11 PM new
I can imagine an elderly couple deep in the Ozark backwoods buying the $100 ebay accordian and expecting it to be in absolute perfect condition.
I admit that using a phrase similar to " Item is sold in an as-is condition with no refunds so ask any questions before bidding " to make it crystal clear that the buyer is taking a gamble is a good practice.
-------------- sig file ----------- *There is no conclusive evidence that life is serious*
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fluffythewondercat
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posted on December 26, 2003 04:58:51 PM new
"may or may not need a reconditioning, my eyes are untrained in this area"
That is no disclaimer.
My truck may or may not need a tuneup. But it runs.
My Howard Miller mantel clock may or may not need cleaning. But it tells time.
My cat may or may not need feeding. (She has her own opinion.) But she still does all the things cats do.
There's a difference between "may need work" and "broken".
You claim that "really old, really nice and really shiny" implies non-working condition when it implies nothing of the sort.
Toolhound is right on the money.
--
"What does the 'O' stand for?"
"Nothing."
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auctionACE
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posted on December 26, 2003 05:11:59 PM new
It's a diclaimer although a weak disclaimer. The buyer should of asked about any return policy on a hundred dollar item before bidding.
-------------- sig file ----------- *There is no conclusive evidence that life is serious*
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micmic66
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posted on December 26, 2003 05:14:22 PM new
Hound, no hard feelings, this whole thing has me PO'd. Anyways, I did take the instrument out of it's case and the slightest movement of it made some nice rich sounds so I kinda figured it might work.
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alwaysfun
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posted on December 26, 2003 05:56:13 PM new
I sold an accordian a few years back and as much as I tried to see if it works, I have no flippin' clue how to play an accordian or if it was in tune. I also put a disclaimer that I had no idea since I didn't know how to properly play it. Ends up it wasn't working correctly and luckily my buyer was able to fix it and was still pleased since he got such a deal. Those accordians are real buggers and if you dont' know how to play it, it is impossible to know if it 'works' Too many keys and how you hold it, etc make them a real pain.
I have to 100% agree with micmic66
When selling an array of items, we can't be expected to know about everything. If someone was interested, then they should have asked specifics if their questions weren't answered in the description!
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fluffythewondercat
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posted on December 26, 2003 08:05:16 PM new
we can't be expected to know about everything
Right. And if he had only said, "I don't know if this works or not. I don't know anything about accordions." That would have been perfectly acceptable as a disclaimer.
What he *did* say reminds me of people who want to say as little as they can about the object so that the bidder's imagination fills in the rest. It was misleading and possibly deceptive.
--
"What does the 'O' stand for?"
"Nothing."
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pointy
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posted on December 26, 2003 08:18:15 PM new
A big DITTO to what fluffy says.
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auctionACE
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posted on December 26, 2003 08:49:53 PM new
Sorta like people that use only a photo as description? That's a lot of the ebay sellers, especially power sellers. Three word descriptions and a photo and a 300 word TOS.
I'm sure the OP learned a 'disclaimer language lesson' on this squezzebox that tried to squezze back.
-------------- sig file ----------- *There is no conclusive evidence that life is serious*
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kiara
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posted on December 26, 2003 10:01:09 PM new
I agree with toolhound and fluffy. You have been selling long enough to know that a vaguely worded disclaimer like you used may only bring trouble.
I've sold older cameras, watches and radios, etc that I didn't have a clue about and mentioned it up front and sold them "as is" with never a problem. The bidders knew they were taking a chance as I was very clear in my descriptions.
Edited to say that I never take PayPal for "as is" auctions and I make that clear also.
[ edited by kiara on Dec 26, 2003 10:04 PM ]
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sparkz
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posted on December 26, 2003 10:21:44 PM new
Kiara...I agree completely. I sell mainly collectibles, but I will occasionally sell electronic test equipment such as signal generators, oscilloscopes, multimeters and occasionally modern as well as vintage communications receivers. Even though I am able to test this equipment and satisfy myself that it is functioning properly, I have no idea of the qualifications of the buyer when it comes to operating some of this stuff. I custom make a disclaimer for each one of these auctions (cut and paste boilerplate doesn't work with this stuff). I basically strongly convey the point that it is "as is" and the only guarantee is that it won't arrive DOA, except in the case of vacuum tube equipment. I strongly urge email inquiries from bidders prior to bidding. So far I've had no problems, but it's still a high wire act with a questionable safety net.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
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NEROTER12
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posted on December 27, 2003 04:28:33 AM new
Micmic, sounds like from your point of view you did give a disclaimer, but unfortunately it was not clear enough to the buyer.
I would do as the other poster suggested and ask them to take it to a music shop before returning. Maybe then you can do a partial refund or something.
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Damariscotta
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posted on December 27, 2003 04:41:16 AM new
"May need reconditioning" sounds like minor tuneup or cosmetic work. "May need repair" would be more of a clue (even though would impact selling price more). If I were selling an item that was going to take that much effort to pack and ship, I would have either done some more investigation beforehand, or made it very clear in terms "as is, no returns".
Aside from that, just as with bagpipes, I think a non-working accordian is more desireable.
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fluffythewondercat
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posted on December 27, 2003 07:05:39 AM new
A local music store has this bumper sticker:
"Play an Accordion, Go to Jail. It's the law!"
--
"What does the 'O' stand for?"
"Nothing."
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chimpchamp
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posted on December 27, 2003 07:37:47 AM new
Regardless of what opinion is here...you have no protection as a seller if the buyer initiates a chargeback from PayPal. We all know there is no seller protection policy any longer. PayPal assumes all sellers are guilty until proven innocent.
My opinion for what it is worth... I wouldn't refund the buyer. Especially if they have a good number of buys under their belt. They didn't ask questions prior to bidding. They evidently didn't read or comprehend your auction description. If you do refund I certainly wouldn't refund shipping.
~S~
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chimpchamp
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posted on December 27, 2003 07:43:44 AM new
Regardless of what opinion is here...you have no protection as a seller if the buyer initiates a chargeback from PayPal. We all know there is no seller protection policy any longer. PayPal assumes all sellers are guilty until proven innocent.
My opinion for what it is worth... I wouldn't refund the buyer. Especially if they have a good number of buys under their belt. They didn't ask questions prior to bidding. They evidently didn't read or comprehend your auction description. If you do refund I certainly wouldn't refund shipping.
~S~
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neglus
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posted on December 27, 2003 08:09:29 AM new
I tend to agree with many of the others - the wording of your auction was not clear enough to provide you an honest "out". You would have been much better off to simply state you didn't know whether it was working or not and leave it at that.
Since PP offers no seller protection and buyer can submit a chargeback and KEEP the merchandise, I think you are ahead to offer the buyer a full refund and maybe hope to split shipping fees at most. At least then you will get your item back for resale! It is surprising how well buyers respond when you take the high road in matters like this!
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toolhound
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posted on December 27, 2003 09:35:54 AM new
I would try offering a partial refund to help towards the repair. You might save yourself a hassel and a Negative feedback.
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