posted on September 22, 2001 02:57:24 PM new
Someone mentionend in another post that a union of sellers would be useful to protect common interests when listing on ebay, Knowing that theres almost nothing new under the sun - Does anyone know if such a Beast exists ? Id think that if several thousand sellers were focused on promoting good policys and opposing bad ones - Perhaps ebay would be a better venue for buying and selling. What do you think ?
Ed
posted on September 22, 2001 03:08:22 PM new
Ok4leather, I'd love to see something like this get started. I don't know of any such organization at the present time, but maybe some other sellers do. If none is available, I'd be more than willing to help with the startup assuming the interest and support is there. We can see what the level of enthusiasm is for this concept. Anyone?
posted on September 23, 2001 12:09:54 PM new
There was such an organization started right on these boards 2 years ago.
Unfortunately, the organization is in chaos at the current time. Perhaps with fresh ideas, the organization can come out of the ashes and become what is was meant to be.
posted on September 23, 2001 12:15:42 PM new
Toollady, the group you mention has never, IMO, taken a proactive stance. A sellers' union or PAC should negotiate from a position of power. For example, the first step should be to organize a one-day strike. Unless eBay sellers are prepared to do more than whine, don't expect any changes.
posted on September 23, 2001 12:43:09 PM new
twinsoft,
A one day strike is not going to do anything.
The million auction march had the right idea about moving auctions to other auction sites and expanding horizons.
All a one day strike is going to do is make the numbers dip a little, then skyrocket the next day when everyone lists what they would have on the previous day.
What sellers really need to do is start supporting the 2nd tier auction sites. Make a commitment to stick with them for 90-120 days in earnest before attempting to go back to ebay.
I'm not saying totally commit, but make a concerted effort to reduce listings at ebay while building their online presence at another venue and become less dependent on ebay for sales.
And, I know what the next thing is going to be... 2nd tier sites and advertising, or lack there of.
As far as the 2nd tier sites advertising, I have found the only thing that advertising does is bring in additional sellers, not bidders. So, to counteract that, it is up to us, as sellers to let our bidders know there is a whole slew of other auction sites outside of ebay.
Member OAUA
posted on September 23, 2001 12:51:59 PM new
Toollady, a one-day strike may not accomplish much. IMO opinion, it should be the first step. Followed by continued one-day strikes. (Let's remember, many folks depend on eBay for their livelihood. We can't all just walk away.) It will send a message to eBay. And yes, I believe that sellers should support other sites. As you know, I advocate forming a new auction site run by sellers themselves.
I see the OAUA as reactive, waiting for problems to occur. Their motives are good but they are not effective. Our situation as sellers is too severe to sit on our hands.
posted on September 23, 2001 01:14:08 PM new
Twinsoft,
In all honesty, I can not see how a co-op or seller run auction could be successful.
As you are well aware there are many personalities out there. All I see is lots of bickering and not much getting accomplished. A professional management staff needs to be in place to make the tough decisions.
If we are to get out from under the weight of the 800lb gorilla known as ebay, I think what we need to do is check out all of the auctions sites and see which ones are willing to form a pact with the auction users.
I'm not saying something along the lines of giving us reduced priced listings in exchange for using the site. I'm thinking more along the lines of a true voices of the auction community.
If any of the sites are willing, to poll the users before implementing new services, fees, etc. Really listen to what the auction users have to say and implement changes truly based on what they want and need to be successful.
The difference between ebay or any of the other publically held entities like yahoo, and the other sites is, ebay et al must show growth to their bottom line because they are a publically traded company. They need to keep the stockholders happy no matter what it may do to the sellers. The sellers are the ones who carry the burden of costs passed along to make the stockholders happy.
On the other hand, the privately held companies, in order to grow their bottom line needs to make the auction users happy.
As long as the users are happy, their bottom line continues to grow without raising fees because more users will come to avoid the increasing fees of ebay.
Just for illustration purposes of a privately held auction site growing without having to raise fees:
1,000 paying fees of $10 per month avg in fees = $10,000 first year.
2,000 paying the same fees = $20,000
As long as the site makes the users feel like part of the equation, they will continue to grow and prosper without having to raise fees.
This is where an organization like the OAUA would come into the picture. They could negotiate on their membership's behalf. Sort of like a collective bargaining agreement.
While not everyone would need to be a member, all using the negotiated site would benefit.
posted on September 23, 2001 01:30:51 PM new
I agree, and co-op auction site is not a sound business model. Too many conflicts and too much politics for a business to run properly. It is a business after all. Auctions have been businesses for hundreds if not thousands of years.
However, I do agree that a Seller's Union would be a welcome organization. A non-profit organization of auction sellers whose sole purpose is to watch out for its members and petition disagreements with ALL the auction sites, not just ebay. To help implement sound ideas that assist sellers and of course to encourage bidders.
I also think a website for members and visitors, a logo to post with your auctions to indicate a "Seal of approval", and there would have to be dues, otherwise the union cannot operate properly. Perhaps benefits could include such ideas as photo hosting, listings tools, etc.
Also management would have to be proactive. Keep in touch with the auction sites management and payment services.
The problem is, such an organization would have to have monthly fees, and build a financial base to be prepared to take on the big guys. This would include retaining a law firm to help assist its members when such times rise. If the Union doesn't have financial power, it cannot make it.
I, for one, would be more than willing to donate webdesign time and space for such an idea. Plus, of course, my monthly dues.
I do NOT think its a good idea to create our own auction site and attempt to get into the same business with ebay. It would be counter productive and let's face it, you are fighting one of the most powerful sites on the internet. 5 billion in sales strong. Not to mention yahoo and amazon all have fairly deep pockets.
Count me in for a union, but not an alternative auction site.
DJ
posted on September 23, 2001 01:37:23 PM newTL, I advocate a cooperative because I think it is the most secure way to protect sellers' rights. With a co-op, there is a contract in place before the doors even open. In theory, I agree that any auction site would be suitable, but what's to prevent the owners from changing the tune once the money starts to come in? Without the legal guarantees, who among us can honestly say that they wouldn't "sign ze papers" for an easy billion dollars? Really, I'm for any site, as long as the protection is there.
The OAUA may have represented sellers' interests in some cases, but I don't see them as a proactive organization. OAUA has been around for a couple of years, but what have they accomplished? eBay fees have gone up, just as they would have anyway. eBay is phasing out auctions, shipping the powersellers off to Half.com, and pricing out the rest, just as they would have anyway. I would support the OAUA if they were anything more than just a coffee klatch with a cute icon.
Bottom line, I think: No site or organization is going to represent us, until we are ready to take action ourselves on an individual level. It'll take more than just voting for directors or paying a membership fee. OAI is big business, and no one will look out for our interests if we don't look out for them ourselves.
posted on September 23, 2001 01:37:49 PM new
I agree, and co-op auction site is not a sound business model. Too many conflicts and too much politics for a business to run properly. It is a business after all. Auctions have been businesses for hundreds if not thousands of years.
However, I do agree that a Seller's Union would be a welcome organization. A non-profit organization of auction sellers whose sole purpose is to watch out for its members and petition disagreements with ALL the auction sites, not just ebay. To help implement sound ideas that assist sellers and of course to encourage bidders.
I also think a website for members and visitors, a logo to post with your auctions to indicate a "Seal of approval", and there would have to be dues, otherwise the union cannot operate properly. Perhaps benefits could include such ideas as photo hosting, listings tools, etc.
Also management would have to be proactive. Keep in touch with the auction sites management and payment services.
The problem is, such an organization would have to have monthly fees, and build a financial base to be prepared to take on the big guys. This would include retaining a law firm to help assist its members when such times rise. If the Union doesn't have financial power, it cannot make it.
I, for one, would be more than willing to donate webdesign time and space for such an idea. Plus, of course, my monthly dues.
I do NOT think its a good idea to create our own auction site and attempt to get into the same business with ebay. It would be counter productive and let's face it, you are fighting one of the most powerful sites on the internet. 5 billion in sales strong. Not to mention yahoo and amazon all have fairly deep pockets.
Count me in for a union, but not an alternative auction site.
DJ
posted on September 23, 2001 01:46:32 PM new1CentCDs, in order to negotiate with eBay, sellers need some power. Otherwise we're just whining. Unless we can back up our words. Either by striking or going to another site. Remember Yahoo? Used to be free. They brought in a lot of eBay sellers. Then they began charging fees, just like eBay. So the sellers went back to eBay. Yahoo is in the dumps.
Think about it. A co-op is just like any other business. It can take out loans and buy big-time advertising. But so far co-ops have not been effective. Because sellers would rather buckle under to eBay and pay the fees than make a sincere effort on their own. You'll have the same problem with an advocacy group. And believe you me, the 3000 members of OAUA don't mean a gnat's poop to eBay.
If we're going to negotiate effectively, we must have some kind of leverage.
posted on September 23, 2001 01:50:49 PM new
Toyranch had a good idea. Start with a million users. Not a thousand. A group like that can negotiate, and will have its own momentum. Charge everyone a buck if you have to and elect representatives.
posted on September 23, 2001 02:03:55 PM new
Twinsoft,
3000 may not mean alot to ebay, but 3000 users would certainly mean a lot to one of the other auction sites that have the right stuff in place and need the traffic that 3000 users and their friends and associates can deliver.
The problem is, auction sellers will never have any leverage with ebay, be it 3,000 or 300,000. Organization of at minimum of 1 million users might have an impact but I doubt it. Ebay doesn't have to answer to anyone but their stockholders.
You ask what's to stop another site from going back on it's word?
How about their integrity and future growth?
What if part of the bargaining with the other sites was an account credit or rebate check if their profits went over a certain percentage?
I think the best way to tackle this is to indeed perhaps form a sellers organization, set down in writing what we need, to continue to prosper and what we would like to see from auction sites to help us accomplish this.
In turn, open up dialog with other auction sites and see how they are willing to accomodate us. This would definitely be a give and take equation on both sides.
It might be time to look at the secondary sites with a whole new attitude. Really look at the site, the layout, features, ease of use, customer service, etc. Take these all into consideration before approaching any of the sites. Reason being, we may decide to to give a site a shot based on their cooperation, but not be able to use it based on lack of necessary functions.
Sorry to the person who started this thread. Twinsoft and I have seemed to hijacked it.
I would like to hear some thoughts from the initial posters in this thread. What do you think of what has just been batted about?
posted on September 23, 2001 02:26:49 PM new
It takes money folks. You can't have a credible threat to ebay without an organization with power and backing. It takes money to make the power in this world.
An alternative auction site is not a threat to ebay, and certainly against a union's principles. Would the teamstters start their OWN company to compete with their member's employers just to be a threat? Think not. A Union cannot be in competition with the very businesses your are trying to represent your members on.
If you want to make a credible threat to ebay, then design your own auction site and spend a few million advertising it. A non-profit auction site (or even founded by a supposedly non-profit union) is against the very business principles all the sellers are trying to do. We are in business to make money, not give it away. Heck, even the sellers bucked at the AFA program.
I am saying the Union would need money and lawyers. Lawyers are a CREDIBLE threat, and ebay would HAVE to respond to their complaints, especially if they are filed in a court of law. Ebay certainly doesn't want the bad publicity, and after awhile would get tired of lawsuits or complaints. They are not going to ignore them, because doing so would cost a pretty penny.
The reason the 3000 members of OAUA are not effective is because you need to be organized and not try to COMPETE, but get some VOICE in the area. Which means lawyers, litigation, and publicity. That is how the unions do it, and if necessary a strike or boycott, or whatever. If you took the money from 3000 members and hired a GOOD law firm, and then ebay (or any auction site) did anything against the members, you act as one. A 3000 person complaint filed in a court of law is NOT something that ebay can ignore. And it will cost them no matter what, even to respond to it.
If you waste all your time trying to put ebay out of business by competing, you are acting in futility. Even Microsoft would have a hard time bringing down ebay by competing with them, and Microsoft can afford to spend billions if it wanted. Beside the fact that it would be an inept try.
I am not whining. I don't whine. I am simply agreeing that a UNION or PAC is a good idea and would be willing to be active in it. Which is the header of this thread. I do NOT agree we should compete against ebay or any other auction site. We should be proactive in protecting the interests of the members and when necessary wield the arm of the courts when there is a case.
DJ
posted on September 23, 2001 02:38:52 PM newHow about their integrity and future growth?
C'mon, quit kidding.
If there isn't a contract in place, you got nuttin'.
I would suggest that starting out, the most important thing is sheer numbers. Beg, borrow or steal eBay's membership list and spam the hell out of them. I don't care, call me Gegy.com or whatever, I have few scruples about spamming eBay sellers in order to create a sellers' advocacy group or alternate auction site.
Once you've got 10,000 users (a bare minimum) or more, then start to yank eBay's chain. Periodic boycotts or alternate listing days (IOW, list a day's auctions at another site). Just start chipping away, build the numbers, until eBay starts to notice. Anything beyond just chatting in forums would be good. I live near San Jose and I wouldn't be adverse to picketing eBay's offices. Just for kicks. Ninety-nine more picketers and we'd have a spot on CNN.
Roofguy, how about a one-day boycott every month, or every week? By a million users?
Remember the reserve fee thing? It was the exodus to Golds that forced eBay to back down. eBay didn't back down completely, but they reduced the proposed fee by half.
And yes, media attention is important. It's the only thing eBay cares about any more.
posted on September 23, 2001 06:00:40 PM new
No, not an ebay seller's union, but a union or organization that represents sellers. There are organization in the USA that support a wide variety of small businesses and professions. These individuals that form organizations to give themselves a voice in the industry as a whole.
Software Publishers Association comes to mind as a non-profit organization that represents (when it started) small software publishers (now larger) and helps fight piracy.
I am not thinking of an organization that trys to tell ebay what to do, but when ebay, paypal, etc step over the line, there would be a voice that has to be heard. If necessary, one that is represented in the courts.
DJ
posted on September 23, 2001 06:09:54 PM newtoollady -
I agree with you that we need to put our eggs in other baskets. I have been looking at some of the other auction sites, but honestly don't know which ones to start listing on (although I do know which ones NOT to list on)...
Do you list on sites other than eBay? If so, what sites do you suggest? I have been selling for just under a year, and have been limited to eBay only. I would appreciate advice from someone who has much more experience in the auction arena that I do!
posted on September 23, 2001 06:46:42 PM new
Shame that ONE company with a bit of money would fund a new site. Advertising would be key if you can get bidders there, the sellers would come in droves.
posted on September 23, 2001 06:46:51 PM new
Shame that ONE company with a bit of money would fund a new site. Advertising would be key if you can get bidders there, the sellers would come in droves.
posted on September 23, 2001 08:27:01 PM new
nanandme,
It really depends on what you sell. There are several niche sites as well as a few general sites that are worth taking a look at.
For a general site, I would recommend sellyouritem.com. Here are the reasons why:
1) They have some good features that make moving your auctions very simple. If you have auctions recently ended at ebay or yahoo, and you aren't sure you want to run them again, the auction information can be copied over with a few clicks of a button.
2) The sell form is very easy to use and you can choose your start time/day for your auctions. Not that it matters to some, but the title box has more room for your title.
Also, 3 automatic re-lists if you choose.
3)If you choose, your auctions can be saved and remain in a file until you delete them.
4) Counters are automatically added to your listings. You have the option to have them viewable or not, to potential bidders.
5) Excellent support staff. Emails actually get read and answered correctly and within a reasonable amount of time.
6) They are included in auction management software that quite a few people use at ebay. Since it competes with AW, I won't mention the software. If you do check out the site, you will find all the necessary information.
Disadvantages:
1) No image hosting. If you use pictures, you will need to have a place to store them.
2) Limited amount of traffic
For true antiques & collectibles, I would suggest tbayauctions.com, popula.com and ehammer.com
For a twist on the auction format, bargainandhaggle.com
I would recommend to anyone interested in trying other auction sites to do a few things:
Read their annoucements board
Check out the site map
How is the layout of the site. Is it easy to navigate?
Check out the forums
READ the User Agreement AND the Privacy Policy
Send an email or 2 to their Customer Service Dept and see how they respond and how long it takes them to do so.
Check the listings, Either completed, or current. See what is selling. Are the categories set up in a coherent manner? Is there a bunch of junk listed( yeah, I know, one mans junk, yada, yada )? Are items in the proper categories?
Okay, that was more than a few things. But, if you are seriously considering looking elsewhere, make sure the site suits your needs and you are willing to make a commitment to stick it out for a little bit.
Running an auction once is not really a true measure, especially when most of the other sites have limited traffic. Even though you may feel like your items are getting stale, they aren't stale to the person going to the site and seeing them for the first time.
posted on September 24, 2001 12:31:08 AM new
Considering we just created onecentmusic, it would be hard to "mention" us awhile back. This account on auctionwatch was only created on Sept 7, 2001. That doesn't mean I am new to AW or ebay, just in this form.
No, we are NOT [email protected] on ebay. I will clarify that with no problems. We have the upmost respect for Marie and her business, and am not trying to imply anything in anyway as to being related to her business here or on ebay.
posted on September 24, 2001 10:05:17 AM new
Many Great thoughts: a few Idont cares: It seems there may be something here to work with. I was just thinking that when our main venue sticks to being just a place for buyers and sellers to hook up- all is well, But-it seems that things have changed and its no longer a free market venue - We as users have been told to accept all new changes, fees, restrictions etc... or Leave - Thats fine and fair- They are looking to generate max revenue - at the sellers expense. Its classic - Large body of unconnected individuals are easy to dominate or dictate to - Things change radically once the individuals get organized and begin using their common interests to negotiate better conditions - in our case things like "links to our own sites" or ability to communicate directly with the bidders etc...
I believe this is a phase of evolution for the Online Auction industry - They focus on profit and how it can be maxxed out :I dont believe this will change until sellers and even buyers to some extent, Organize themselves into large barganing groups and negoiate Basic Rights for individuals and small businesses who use online auctions. Ebay may ignore 1 or 50 or 3000 individuals but what would they say if a group representing 200,000 sellers and buyers asked them to review restrictive policys - and what if 100,000 wrote their congresperson about the industry and basic rights for users - Or the most obvious - boycots- media attention etc.... This is not only an ebay issue it will affect all auction sites at some point in their development. They forget how to take care of their customers and we have to remind them in terms they understand - Dollars
Koplah
Ed
there are many personalities out there. All I see is lots of bickering and not much getting accomplished. A professional management staff needs to be in place to make the tough decisions.
