jcgomer
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posted on September 17, 2000 06:55:36 AM
What about passing on the new fees incurred at PAYPAL to the buyer. "I will accept PAYPAL payment if buyer agrees to pay .25 plus 1.29% of final auction bid price".
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pickersangel
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:01:51 AM
Not sure about that, although I saw in another post that a seller now has a stated $0.75 fee for PayPal payments "because PayPal is now charging me for transactions". I was of the understanding that this was a violation of CC laws--example given was the cash vs. CC price for gas, and it was pointed out that they don't charge MORE for CC purchases--they discount for cash. I'm one of the sellers who is lucky enough to be recouping my PP fees in my sale price already, so I'm not going to sweat it. If it's a problem for you, I'd suggest tacking $0.75 (or the appropriate amount for your items) onto the starting bid.
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juliedc
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:04:01 AM
I am curious too if others are going to do this. I was forced to upgrade at Paypal as well, and have just added some wording into my ads about an additional fee at Paypal. I heard that in Paypal's FAQs it says that credit card regulations say that you cannot charge more for someone to use a credit card. But someone in CS on the phone at Paypal told me (recommended actually) that I pass the fee on to my customers. ALSO gas stations do this in a way by offering a discount for cash. Another way to look at it is that the fee is for PAYPAL, not for using a credit card.
I don't think customers will mind too much. They have to pay a buck for a money order.
Are there other Ebayers out there that are going to pass the fee on to customers?
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redhead1
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:07:27 AM
Hi JC and PickersAngel,
I bid on an auction this morning where the seller stated that if the bidder is paying with paypal please add .75 to the bid amount. The item was still a good deal so I bid on it.
I am not sure how ebay will handle this. I guess we will see! 
~~Redhead~~
\"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider
that the limit of our power of perception is also the
limit of all there is to perceive.\"--C.W.L.
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abacaxi
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:10:39 AM
1. PayPal may NOT charge buyers fees because it's against CC regs.
2. BUT ... the sellers are not dealing directly with the CC company, it's recieved second-hand via PP, so if a seller decides to add a "transaction fee" it's OK until PP decides to change their TOS again.
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packer
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:16:21 AM
PayPal is going to be charging us .25 cents PER tranaction PLUS 1.9% I assume for CC fee.
BUT...how do we know that our customers have paid by CC.
I have paid for many things through PayPal and I have yet to use my CC thats on file.
I have just tried to keep enough in my account to pay for my occasional "impulse" spending.
I say if the "buyer" wants the convenience of using PayPal they can help absorb the cost.
"Buyer" pays the .25 cents(cheaper then a stamp) & "seller" pays the 1.9%. Sounds fair to me!
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair & PayPal Day! ...  . 
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abingdoncomputers
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:24:12 AM
I don't think credit card laws apply to PayPal transactions. The seller doesn't accept credit card payments from buyers. PayPal does. Technically, when PayPal charges a buyers's credit card, this charge is not payment for the goods from the seller. This charge is for the sole purpose of adding funds to the PayPal account. Nothing more, nothing less.
For example, the winning bidder of an auction owes $10 to the seller. He uses a credit card to add the $10 to the PayPal account. PayPal then beams the money to the seller's email address. Only one problem: the seller is not a PayPal user. The payment goes unclaimed. In this scenario, the seller never receives the money from PayPal. Yet there is a charge on the buyer's credit card from PayPal. This charge is completely separate from the buyer's transaction with the seller, which will have to be completed with an alternate form of payment.
Also, when a seller receives money into his PayPal account, there is no way of knowing where that money "came" from. It could have been a debit from the buyer's bank account. It could have been money that the buyer received as payment for an item that he sold to yet another PayPal user. Maybe the buyer funded the PayPal account with a check. There is simply no way for PayPal or anyone else to enforce credit card laws on a PayPal transaction because there is no way to determine if the money actually came from a credit card. And even if it did, please refer back to paragraphs one and two.
This is my opinion on the matter. I would love to hear others.
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Glenda
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:35:09 AM
From the Listing Policies page at eBay (http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/png-list.html):
An eBay seller may not charge a fee, often called a "credit card surcharge," when accepting credit card payments. This surcharge, which is an added cost to the buyer over and above the final sale price and shipping/handling, is not allowed under the laws of many states, including California. For more information, see:
http://www-s2.visa.com/fb/merch/biz/govt/surcharge.html
http://www.mastercard.com/consumer/cust_serv.html
-------------------
Ya'll may try to rationalize that there's no way to tell if the buyer was using a credit card, and therefore it's okay to 'have the buyer help foot the cost to the seller', but I think you'd be kidding yourself.
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juliedc
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:44:11 AM
I don't think we are kidding ourselves if we are charging the person if they pay with PAYPAL, whether or not they use a credit card. Paypal is passing their credit card fee on to us, and we in turn pass it on to the customer. The customer is gaining something by using Paypal, they are gaining the convenience of not having to mail the payment, plus saving the postage and cost of the money order.
But Glenda brings up an interesting point: it won't be up to us, will it? It will be up to Ebay and how they interpret the credit card regulations.
Would love to hear how many of you are planning on passing on the fees, and how.
Tacking $1 on to my shipping fee would work, but just a shame to have to charge consumers that aren't using paypal.
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abingdoncomputers
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:44:57 AM
Glenda,
A PayPal payment is NOT a credit card payment. Therefore eBay's policy as stated in your post does not apply. But as we all know, eBay would probably disagree and shut down the auction. But that doesn't mean that eBay is right, just that eBay is in control and can do what they wish.
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abacaxi
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:51:46 AM
Glenda -
When a payment hits a PP account, there is NO WAY for the recipient to tell if the payment was made by a CC transaction, an EFT from a bank account, or from the sender's balance. ONLY the CC payment costs PP a % of the transaction value, EFTs are batched and cost fractions of a penny apiece, and the intra-PP transfer of funds does nothing to affect their float and is automatically handled.
PP wants to charge business accounts for ALL incoming money, regardless of source. If I were to sign up for a business account, the money my sister transfers from her BANK account for me to pay contractors with would be hit with a 1.9% transfer fee.
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packer
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:55:48 AM
In my EOA I give the link to paypal as one option to pay.
There isn't one thing that can stop me from adding "if you want to pay by paypal please add $.??". Then the choice is theirs to determine if it is worth the convenience of it. It makes no difference to me if I get payed by paypal or by check or MO.
This whole CC - PayPal thing is a CONVENIENCE for the buyer because it usually means they get their stuff Faster and is a less hassle for them.
Trust me it is no hassle for me to take my checks & MO to the bank when I receive them.
I LOVE ANY FORM OF PAYMENT.
CC & Paypal is solely a convenience of the "buyer".
edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD hair & PayPal Day! ... .
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vargas
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posted on September 17, 2000 08:03:31 AM
Wasn't that part of the premise behind PayPal? The original TOS stated that purchasers were using credit cards to buy money (the funding of their PayPal accounts) -- not goods from the seller.
Sellers are not accepting credit card payments when they accept PayPal. PayPal is accepting credit card payments. Sellers are accepting cash from a PayPal account.
Still, this is a gray area and is subject to interpretation. It may turn out to be another flaw in PayPal's original model. What happens when the credit card companies start getting complaints about buyers paying fees to use PayPal? Will the CC companies decide they don't want to be a part of the whole PayPal business, decide to classify it as a cash advance and start charging transaction fees for money transfers into PayPal?
This could get much messier before it's all over. It might not be a bad idea to have a back-up service in place in the event PayPal takes a very big fall.
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figmente
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posted on September 17, 2000 08:05:16 AM
Neither of the above links answer the question. We all know that CC rules and state laws disallow CC surcharges... In a paypal transaction the payee is not exactly accepting a credit card payment. Do the terms of these laws cover the case or not?
Personally I don't know but would like to.
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abingdoncomputers
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posted on September 17, 2000 08:07:36 AM
Vargas:
You are 100% correct.
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sg52
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posted on September 17, 2000 11:46:00 AM
The long-established way to charge the fee if you want to is by offering a discount to those who don't incur the fee.
The nearly obvious way to do that on eBay is via a shipping discount.
"$6 shipping in the US, $5 to those who pay by other than credit card".
sg52
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sulyn1950
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posted on September 17, 2000 11:59:48 AM
Over a month ago I emailed both Mastercard and Visa for their policy/proceedure concerning 3rd party billing services. My position was I am NOT accepting CC payments, I DO NOT have a merchant account. I am simply accepting a payment THROUGH a 3rd party company. How THEY accept payment should NOT concern me.
Mastercard sent a canned response (4 days later) and simply referred me to their site BUT did state fees cannot be passed on to credit card users and minimums cannot be set to qualify for use of a CC, but that discounts could be offered for cash payers. No reference to 3rd party payment services at all.
VISA sent a response (2week later)that stated I would have to abide by the TOU of EACH 3rd party payment service I used.
I really believe that EVENTUALLY we will see some revisions/clarification/new policies from CC companies addressing specifically 3rd party payment services SINCE they seem to be popping up daily. I guess we'll just have to wait and see where all of this is heading.
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Sep 17, 2000 12:03 PM ]
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thedewey
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posted on September 17, 2000 02:26:30 PM
One thing I'd like to know is ...
If credit card companies prohibit the passing-along of fees ...
how can PayPal charge us?
Maybe charging the sellers, versus the buyers, gets them around this rule. Or maybe they have some special kind of account. (???)
Just wondering ...
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lovetosell
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posted on September 17, 2000 02:31:41 PM
Of course this is just my humble opinion, but if I ran across an auction that said to add $$$ to use Pay-Pal, I'd go onto the next auction. Why not just open your item for a little more if you're worried about losing money via Pay-Pal? Or don't accept Pay-Pal at all. This is like the old "handling" fee argument. How much is cost of doing business and how much is greed?
I haven't sold on eBay in a while (market is just too saturated for me, but that's a different thread), but when I was selling, I always offered a $1.00 DISCOUNT if folks paid with a money order to help defray their costs. You wouldn't believe how many money orders I got, not to mention, very happy repeat customers. Sometimes it's the little things that mean a lot.
Teresa
[email protected]
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alrad
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posted on September 17, 2000 02:43:40 PM
Teresa if that would work sellers would do that... BUT being an auction format teh opening bid does not determine final price... final price is set by fair market value of the item to bidders. the bidders set the prices. (otherwise everyone would get book value on all their stuff.... LOL)
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alrad
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posted on September 17, 2000 02:54:08 PM
teresa meant to add that the idea of discountign for money orders is great... i used to do that "before paypal" for higher priced items (50 bucks or so ). helped me as much as the customer big grin
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texmontana
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posted on September 17, 2000 03:13:33 PM
I will not charge my buyers a fee for using PayPal because:
1. I don't charge a fee on Billpoint payments.
2. I am too appreciative of receiving an auction payment the same day the sale ends.
3. When I receive payment via Billpoint or PayPal, I am not making a trip to the bank, therefor saving me time (AKA money!!).
I saw a listing in which the seller was requesting an additional $1.00 fee for payments through PayPal. They also accept Billpoint- but no mention of an additional charge for that method. Makes me kind of think that a surcharge on a PayPal payment is more of an emotional decision than a practical business decision.
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photogeyk
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posted on September 17, 2000 06:02:37 PM
COST OF DOING BUISNESS, IF YOU ARE MAKING MONEY WITH THE USE OF THE SERVICE, THEN YOU SHOULD EXPECT TO PAY A FEE FOR THE SERVICE, JUST CHAULK IT UP TO A FREE RIDE UNTILL THE CONDUCTOR ASK FOR YOUR TICKET STUB!!!!
every 20 seconds in america a woman is giving birth:SHE MUST BE FOUND AND STOPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.................................................................
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pickersangel
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posted on September 17, 2000 07:37:09 PM
"BUT being an auction format teh opening bid does not determine final price... "
I still don't understand this argument about not being able to absorb the extra Paypal expense in the opening bid. My opening bids cover my costs. Anything over and above the opening bid is gravy. Are a lot of sellers opening their bids below cost for items whose market price won't cover the additional amount (say $0.75, for instance) that PayPal's fees will add? I realize that $0.75 on lots of items ouches because it could have been money in the seller's pocket, but are there really so many sellers that were previously profitable who will lose their shorts because they will now be selling at a loss? If so, it just doesn't seem to me that their businesses could have been very profitable to begin with.
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jlb444
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posted on September 17, 2000 08:13:49 PM
I called them (paypal) on the phone. I was confused because it said selling on any commercial site and you must upgrade to business. When I went to upgrade even though I am not a business and had no tax id number to put in their slot...I was confused because I buy about as much as I sell and I consider myself a trader. When I talked to them on the phone they told me I did not have to upgrade my account if I wasn't a business without a tax id and was buying and selling items on Ebay. The girl told me no I didn't have to sign up on a business account if I was buying and selling on ebay that Paypal was just trying to recoup some of their loses and were trying to get true business people to upgrade their accounts from personal to business. Hope that helps
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feistyone
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posted on September 18, 2000 12:34:06 AM
pickersangel
>>"example given was the cash vs. CC price for gas, and it was pointed out that they don't charge MORE for CC purchases--they discount for cash."<<
You may be right about that but the Arco stations in our area also charge $.25 (convenience charge) per debit card transaction. They claim that they do this because they have the cheapest gas. Hmmm kind of sounds like PayPal reasoning. The interesting thing is that they have raised their prices so they are now about even with the other stations in the area and they still are charging the same $.25 fee making them more expensive in some cases then the competition.
I wonder if PayPal might try something like this.
[ edited by feistyone on Sep 18, 2000 12:34 AM ]
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feistyone
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posted on September 18, 2000 12:51:09 AM
Has anyone else wondered about this?
PayPal wants businesses or people who use Ebay for a business purposes to upgrade to either a business or a premier account.
Business accounts make you fill out all the appropriate information for businesses but premier accounts don't. They in esscence are accounts for non-business people who don't have business licenses, tax ids, etc, and want the same added features as a business account. Am I wrong in assuming this?
So they are saying to the part-time seller that they are not really a business, but they are using PayPal for business purposes, making themselves businesses, so they need to be honest and sign up for a premier (supposedly a voluntary upgrade) account and if they don't they will be caught and punished in some way in the future.
Does anyone else see a problem with this logic or am I just being picky? At the very least it is extremely confusing.
This has been mentioned already in this thread, but there is nothing wrong with Ebay sellers passing on their PayPal charges because they are not actually accepting credit card payments, PayPal is.
[ edited by feistyone on Sep 18, 2000 01:22 AM ]
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Borillar
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posted on September 18, 2000 01:45:57 AM
I haven't decided how we're going to handle it just yet. I really hate the idea of playing these "discount" games instead of straight-up PayPal Useage fees. I am not sure we will be able to make up for losses on small items when we sell larger ones. For right now, no Buyers seem interested in using PayPal and are paying by check or m.o.
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uaru
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posted on September 18, 2000 01:54:36 AM
Rather than have some complicated fee schedule for your buyers (that they probably won't appreciate)why not use a pay service were the buyer pays the fees? There are two major companies that offer such services already.
Western Union's MoneyZap
http://www.moneyzap.com basically this is Western Union's electronic money order, and for now it's free to buyers. When they do start charging it will be the sender that pays a per transaction fee(just like a money order).
First Bank's eMoneymail
http://http://www.emoneymail.com This service has been out for some time, they charge the sender $1.00, considering the price of a money order and stamp, that's a fair price.
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abacaxi
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posted on September 18, 2000 04:01:21 AM
Uh .. wasn't this the way the whole PayPal fiasco started, and aren't a lot of people unhappy about being FORCED TO JOIN PayPal to get their money out.
Western Union's MoneyZap
http://www.moneyzap.com basically this is Western Union's electronic money order, and for now it's free to buyers.
To claim your money:
1. Register with MoneyZap (see How to Register above) or log in if you have already registered.
First Bank's eMoneymail
http://http://www.emoneymail.com This service has been out for some time, they charge the sender $1.00, considering the price of a money order and stamp, that's a fair price.
And they also require the recipient to JOIN to send money.
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