posted on May 6, 2002 10:27:03 AM new
I never really understood the 30 day investigation. someone hacked into my account and transferred money into theirs however I contacted paypal quick enough for them to freeze the money in the hackers account yet it took over 3 months to get it back. A customer service rep even told me dont worry you just have to wait.
posted on May 10, 2002 09:13:04 AM new
Damon, in your TOU it states:
"Credit Card Transactions: The Buyer Protection Policy does not replace or reduce any other consumer rights Users may have, including reversal rights that may be granted by a User's credit card issuer. PayPal is the merchant of record with respect to all credit card transactions through the PayPal service to purchase goods or services. As such, we afford customers the rights and privileges expected of a credit card transaction."
I don't know how much clearer your TOU could be, it clearly states that you don't lose any rights that you would have with a normal credit card purchase. Why, then, is this apparently not the case? You say that you need to try using the buyer complaint process first, but after 30 days you can't. According to credit card rights and the law you have 60 days to dispute a charge. Therefore, if someone needed to dispute a charge on the 45th day after the transaction, they couldn't with a buyer complaint, so they would do a chargeback and then you would restrict their account. Isn't this taking away rights that buyers would normally have with credit card purchases (the ability to dispute a charge after 30 days but before 60 days after the transaction)?
posted on May 10, 2002 10:37:15 AM new
Good point Andrew123s. This should be interesting. I'm anxious to hear what he has to say.
While you're at it Damon, just a quick question... Where does it say that a user cannot close a restricted account? Do your terms of service not state: "You may close your account at any time..."? This must be a pretty tough one for you, too. I originally asked it over a month ago.
posted on May 10, 2002 11:18:15 AM new
Hi ltlcrafty1,
I believe I had posted this about closing accounts (from the User Agreement):
Closing Your Account. You may close your account at any time by clicking on the "Close Account" tab in your Profile on the PayPal website. Upon closure of an account, any pending transactions will be cancelled. Any funds that we are holding in custody for you at the time of closure, less any applicable fees, will be paid to you by check, assuming all withdrawal related authentication requirements have been fulfilled (for example, you may not use closure of your account as a means of evading withdrawal limits on new Unverified users). You may not use closure of your account as a means of evading investigation - if an investigation is pending at the time you close your account, PayPal may continue to hold your funds for up to 180 days as appropriate to protect PayPal against the risk of reversals. If you are later determined to be entitled to some or all of the funds in dispute, PayPal will make an additional payment of those funds to you. You will remain liable for all obligations related to your account even after such account is closed.
The part that applies is that you can't close your account while it is under investigation.
posted on May 10, 2002 11:20:18 AM new
Hi andrew123s,
I don't know how much clearer your TOU could be, it clearly states that you don't lose any rights that you would have with a normal credit card purchase. Why, then, is this apparently not the case? You say that you need to try using the buyer complaint process first, but after 30 days you can't. According to credit card rights and the law you have 60 days to dispute a charge. Therefore, if someone needed to dispute a charge on the 45th day after the transaction, they couldn't with a buyer complaint, so they would do a chargeback and then you would restrict their account. Isn't this taking away rights that buyers would normally have with credit card purchases (the ability to dispute a charge after 30 days but before 60 days after the transaction)?
No. Our User Agreement does specify that an account can be restricted if the user does not file a Buyer Complaint first. Most buyers are going to be aware of an issue with a seller WITHIN 30 days. We would like to attempt recovery for the user before it goes to a chargeback. The buyer's rights are still intact, but there are guidelines for using the service.
What kind of fool do you take me for? What kind of B.S. is this... "the part that applies is that you can't close your account while it is under investigation" ? The part of what? WHERE DOES IT SAY YOU CANNOT CLOSE YOUR ACCOUNT WHILE IT'S UNDER INVESTIGATION? Your terms of service DO NOT STATE THIS. You even posted it yourself -"...if an investigation is pending AT THE TIME YOU CLOSE YOUR ACCOUNT..." Indicating that you still have the option to close your account.
Don't be a jerk Damon. You knew full well that was a crap answer. Just try to concentrate on what I'm asking. WHERE IN YOUR TERMS OF SERVICE DOES IT SAY THAT A USER CANNOT CLOSE A RESTRICED ACCOUNT? Don't cut-n-paste anymore, unless you find the part that says a user cannot close a restricted account. Which you won't.
You know you hammer users all the time about 'how simple things are, if you would just read and follow the terms of service TO THE LETTER'... Why doesn't that apply to you (paypal) as well?
But thanks for proving my point; that PayPal violates it's own Terms of Service in this regard.
posted on May 10, 2002 01:15:10 PM new
Damon, you say most buyers would be aware of an issue before 30 days. But there are some circumstances where a buyer might not be (e.g. the seller says there is a parts backorder), which is probably why you said most. What if there is a time where the buyer does not know that there is an issue (or does not think an issue has escalated to a point where it could not be resolved with a merchant) within the 30 day period of paying? This is why the credit card companies give you 60 days to dispute. If a buyer does not know there is an issue or if something else happened within 30 days you deprive them of that right of disputing the charge after 30 days, as their account will be restricted. Why does your TOU say otherwise (that you will not deprive buyers of any rights that would normally be there in a normal credit card purchase)? One of the rights buyers have with credit cards is to file a dispute on the 31st day to 60th day after purchase.
It is nice to see that you are back. I do agree with andrew here. There are cases where you would not know that there is a problem with a seller. I gave an example earlier on this thread. If the seller says it is going to take 30 business days to ship, and you say I have to file a complaint in 30 days. These numbers do not match up. By the time the problem is noticed, then it is too late to attempt recovery by you and the only recourse that we the buyer has is to file a chargeback.
However, your TOS state that if I do not file a complaint, then you will restrict my account. The only way for us to get our account unrestricted, is to give the money back to paypal and release paypal from any liability. To me and other members of this forum, it looks like you are trying to get us to give up our consumer protection rights.
I have just two questions and it should be easy to answer. Why do you restrict the account if I place a chargeback and have not filed a complaint?
Do you understand why that looks like you are trying to get the buyer to give up there credit card protection rights?
posted on May 10, 2002 03:17:26 PM new
with merchant account,once seller process the sales transaction,he is expected to ship within 48 hours.
so if your seller said he wont be able to ship within 48 hours,and he said so in his item description,you need not hurry to paypal him the payment.
why dont you tell him to remind you 28 days later or 48 hours before shipment to paypal him your payment?
posted on May 10, 2002 04:45:31 PM new
That could be the arrangement, or there could be another arrangement, and the fact is that it is possible for disputes to arise (or escalate so it is no longer resolvable with the seller) after 30 days, and a credit card gives you the right to dispute a charge, while PayPal takes away that right, even though they specifically state in their TOU that they won't take away rights you would have with a credit card.
posted on May 10, 2002 05:27:18 PM new
amzn expects the seller to have the goods on hand when listing the item.
in fact there is a message which comes up when you are listing .
may be ebay should do the same,this will cut down on all the sellers who just scan a picture from a catalog and then place an order after auction end with the buyer's money.
i dont know about you,but if i dont get my merchandise after 3 weeks,i would wonder if i will ever see the merchandise??
and if i receive my credit card statement a week later,i may just file chargeback.
mail order catalog house may say it could take 4 weeks or 6 weeks,but most of the time they will ship within days.
no one wants to wait that long .
posted on May 10, 2002 06:02:44 PM new
When posting an auction, it only makes since that you should have the item that your auctioning off. But, that sometime is not the case. How many times on eBay or Yahoo do you see a "Pre-sale" auction where the terms of the auction are laid out this. Payment is due seven days after the auction closes and the item is shipped 30 days after the payment is received. Some of the sellers using this technigue have done so very well have a very high rating.
PayPal is not just a service that used for Auction Payments, it is also the way that some small business set up their web-page and PayPal states that this is the fastest way to accept payments on the web. If you have a merchant account, you have the control when the card is charged, however, with paypal you do not and it is very possible that a back order could happen on a vender that is using paypal as their payment service.
So if you have sent payment to a vender or you won the auction with terms stated above, PayPal's rules make so you have to file a complaint within the 30 days. If you do not file the complaint and go with the chargeback, paypal will restrict you account.
Now, if you purchase from the seller where you know that you item will not ship in 30 days, and you know that PayPal requires you to place a complaint in 30 days, there is a problem with this. If you place the complaint, most likely the seller will refund you and cancel your order. If you go with the seller, and do not get it, you can use the paypal complaint and have to go to the chargeback. PayPal then restricts your account and tells you to give the money back and you release PayPal from any liability.
After setting up the project and talking to sellers, there was a service that paypal used to do. No matter what the date of the complaint, the seller was e-mailed to let them know that there was complaint. Sometimes the seller used this as a tool to stop chargebacks or to let the seller know that there was a complaint. I have not be able to lock this down, but either in November or December, Paypal stopped doing this and would only e-mail the seller if the complaint was made in the first 30 days. I do not think it would cost paypal a lot of money if they reinstated this e-mail. I am sure a lot of sellers would like this.
Everyone will agree that a company like paypal is needed for people that would like to run a small amount of auctions. However, PayPal should screen who they let have accounts or who they will let accept payments to as a bank would for a Merchant Account.
Also, the information that I have collected, there is some information that PayPal is more interested in getting more people signed up for accounts then keeping the current customers happy. For evidence of this, how many auctions on Ebay and Yahoo are refusing PayPal as the payment service or pointing people to www.paypalwarning.com.
I still have not heard why if I excercise my rights on my credit card by doing the chargeback, and the seller has not shipped, why does the account get restricted? The only reason that we have heard is that is in our TOS. I think a lot of people have a problem with this. The purpose of this thread is not to debate the rules on shipping or placing of the auction, but to get the answer to that simple question and Damon if read this I will place it again.
Other than the answer that it is our TOS, if I do not place a complaint and I place a chargeback on a non-ship for a product, why do you restrict the account.
Damon, please answer that question. If it is to limit chargebacks, that we would understand. If there is another reason, we would understand that as well. However, if the answer is it is in our TOS, then people will assume that you are trying to get us to give up a credit card protection.
posted on May 10, 2002 07:44:35 PM new
In addition, buyer complaints don't apply to quality of goods issues. Does this mean that PayPal will restrict a buyer's account if they file a quality of goods chargeback, since they can't file a quality of goods buyer complaint?
posted on May 10, 2002 08:09:00 PM new
This has been exactly my question too... why is my account on restriction for stopping a payment for non-delivery of goods? (Especially given the buyer was later found to be at fault!)
posted on May 11, 2002 01:28:20 AM new
frustratedguy
Send me a copy of the e-mail that you received from PayPal stating that your account was restricted so I can add it with my research. Send it to me at [email protected]. It would just add some more to mountain of info that I have already.
posted on May 11, 2002 06:29:43 AM new
someone said,
PayPal is not just a service that used for Auction Payments, it is also the way that some small business set up their web-page and PayPal states that this is the fastest way to accept payments on the web. If you have a merchant account, you have the control when the card is charged, however, with paypal you do not and it is very possible that a back order could happen on a vender that is using paypal as their payment service.
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
IF there is a backorder,the seller could refund the payment by hitting that refund button within certain number of days and when the goods arrive,sent the buyer a new paypal invoice.
seller must know if item is in stock,tenporarily out of stock or never to be in stock again.
this can be a discussion of RETAILING 101,not which payment service to use-what is retailing and who is a retailer and why do consumers come to retailer and not the wholesaler and distributor and manufacturer?
why do consumers pay retail prices ??because the retailer takes the time and money to stock up and make goods readily available to the consumer in an easily accessible location.
becasue he is willing to risk his capital and pay for the storefront,he is being rewarded .
you mentioned sellers on ebay and yahoo with pre auction sale,payment in 7 days and goods shipped in 30 days and have done well,these sellers could be affiliated with some companies which have these goods and they usually ship in 10 days even though they say 30 days,they could be employees of brick and mortar stores and they get a discount on purchasing store goods or they are just born with a silver spoon in their mouth-their family owns the business.
many sellers do not realise that their suppliers are selling in cyberspace as well,they pay 5 and you pay 10,they can unload at 7.50 and still make money,can you do the same???
posted on May 11, 2002 07:41:35 AM new
I do agree with what you say and that is what I do with my own auctions and I do have my own merchant account and stopped using PayPal, not because of complaints, but because I personally think that this company is the next Enron waiting to happen.
However, just because the business model works for us, it may not be the way that other people run thier business or auctions. You mentioned the refund button. So you have sent me a payment and PayPal has removed their fees from the payment. The seller realizes that it is not in stock and is not due in for 25 days. He returns payment to the customer (PayPal takes more fees and the customer gets upset that he gets stuck with those fees). The seller now has the object and contacts the customer for the order (PayPal gets more fees).
The difference between the merchant account and PayPal is that with our merchant account I can say charge the card or not to charge the card. With PayPal, that card is charged right away and the fees are removed right away. Now, I think the PayPal should copy some of the ideas that CCNow uses in that when a payment is made, you can keep the order open and then press a button to tell CCNow that the item has shipped and this releases the funds to you. Perhaps this would solve some of the problems that people are having with PayPal regarding thier websites.
As for auctions, and this is just my personal belief, if I post it, I better have it. It saves a whole lot of problems not only with paypal but, all the auctions sites as well.
Credit cards give us the ability to also dispute a transaction regarding the quality of goods. The seller ships something, and it is not as we would have thought it to be. We contact the seller, and they ignor it. Now, PayPal does not dispute a guality of goods issue, and I do not think that we would want them to. However, if I do my chargeback on that, will the account still get restricted? The buyer complaint will not help with that.
I think that most people have issue with PayPal because of the following reasons regarding complaints and chargeback.
Discussing shipping times and all this really is not part of this because there are still some answers that only PayPal can answer.
1.) If I put a chargeback in with out filing a complaint, why is my account restricted? I know that the TOS says that they can do that (it is buried on page 20 and stated in one line, you really have to look hard to find it) and most PayPal customers do not know that.
I think that if PayPal is restricting accounts because of a chargeback that I have started, and then demanding that in order to get my account unrestricted, I have to give the money from the chargeback and release paypal from any liability. I think most people would agree that it looks like PayPal is trying to get around your protection from your credit card.
Doing a chargeback is my right as a credit card holder and PayPal should not punish me for doing the chargeback, and I think that is what they are doing here.
posted on May 11, 2002 09:37:29 AM new
thchaser200, when you hit the refund button the fees do get refunded (the total amount gets refunded to the buyer), but even then there are still situations why it might take more than 30 days.
Stopwhining, there might be many situations where 30 days is fine (you keep posting them) but the point is there will always be some (even if there aren't a lot) situations where 30 days is not adequate, but 60 days is. There are also situations where there is a quality of goods dispute and you can't file a dispute with PayPal period. The point is that credit cards give you 60 days (and the right to file a quality of goods dispute), PayPal gives you 30, and PayPal says they won't take away rights that you would have with a normal credit card purchase.
posted on May 11, 2002 09:39:07 AM new
i believe paypal has amended the refund policy if you refund within certain number of days,no fee is charged,i think it is 3 or 5 or more??somneone may know the exact number of days??
but the problems is that once you refund the payment,customer will find the item somewhere else,by the time you have the item in stock,they no longer want it!!
in the past i have ordered from overseas just to find out my customer does not want the item,she insisted that she has subtly implied she cannot afford it??excuse me ,it is so subtle i completely missed it??
now if i have to make a special effort just to order an item at my customer request,i ask for 50% down.
as for why paypal restricts your account because you initiate chargeback,i think it is looking for way to recover the loss -seller has emptied his account and you file chargeback with your cc company,bla bla bla.
paypal is a mess,and i wont buy paypal stock.
i sign up before oct of last year so they cant dip into my bank account,else i would have removed paypal sign from my auctions
posted on May 11, 2002 09:48:32 AM new
true,credit card company gives you 60 days,with foreign transactions using credit cards issued by foreign banks,it could go for more than a year.
if you dont feel uncomfortable accepting paypal on certain transactions (as a seller) or as a buyer you dont feel comfortable giving your cc to anyone,use billpoint or propay ,send them an invoice and let them key the cc data in,you will never see the cc data .
or ask your customer to use bidpay and split that 5.00 fee with them.
i dont know what you sell,most folks know whether they are happy or not in a few days.
posted on May 11, 2002 11:15:00 AM new
A reason why credit card companies give buyers 60 days is because 30 days isn't always enough. If it was they would have made it 30 days. I am just asking why there seems to be a discrepency in PayPal's TOU vs. the way they actually handle issues. I am not talking about international chargebacks. I'll just wait for a reply from Damon.
posted on May 11, 2002 11:20:15 AM new
My research is showing that the 60 day limit is not set by MasterCard, but is set by the issuing bank. Some of the sellers that I have been talking to have indicated that they have received some chargebacks 6 months after the transaction. I know my wife's card, she disputed a charge 4 months after it was placed.
I stopped using PayPal when I read some of the problems that are on paypalwarning. I found it easier to use my own merchant account to process cards. It gives me more control over the transaction. There are some real problems with PayPal and they need to be straightened out or they will end up screwing millions in a bankruptcy.
posted on May 11, 2002 11:29:58 AM new
merchants get no protection from the credit card industry,may be they think we make so much money we can afford to eat chargebacks 3 times a day.
why dont they ask themselves why do they let so many organisations issue credit cards??no just banks or finance companies but alumni,football club,janitor clubs,yahoo,aol,ebay and god knows what else can issue mc and visa??
and then they come out and cry and cry and said deadbeats are on the rise,fraud is on the rise,give me a break!!
if you have more than 5 credit cards,when do you find out some are missing or stoeln??
posted on May 11, 2002 12:10:00 PM new
As a merchant, whether you have paypal or your own merchant account, you are still responsiable for the chargeback. However, if you have the merchant account, you have more control over the transaction. You can see if there may be something that you may want to verify the card with the processing company.
There are transactions where you just get a feeling for whether the transaction is real or you need to not do it.
posted on May 11, 2002 08:25:27 PM new
Stopwhining, most of the credit cards from organizations like AOL and Yahoo come from real banks and just have that label on them (AOL and Yahoo come from First USA for example).
thchaser200, your right, the issuing bank does set the 60 day limit, but generally all banks have a 60 day limit. Banks can make exceptions to that rule in specific cases, however. But generally you have at least 60 days to dispute a charge, except with PayPal.
Got a question here see if your expertise can give me an answer.
When a buyer transfer fund from his account to the seller's PP account, upon the the completion of the transfer, as stated on the History page as Completed, who does that fund belong to? Or let me put it in a simpler way, who is the legal owner of the funds in a PP account? PP or the owner of the account?
Also the fund in an restricted account that's under 'investigation', which the account owner cannot gain access to, does it still legally belong to the owner of the account or else?
Thanks.
[ edited by cobbe on May 14, 2002 11:27 PM ]
posted on May 15, 2002 06:18:57 AM new
Good questions! It's one thing to restrict an account/person from doing business on Paypal. It's another to restrict them from the money in their account. A bank will only put on hold the amount of money that is in dispute... not the entire balance. It will be interesting to see how Damon answers... if he does.
