posted on January 6, 2001 10:00:32 AM new
Hello all,
I usually post, on occasion, to the more innocuous threads, but I just thought I could ad a certain perspective to this thread.
I am a recovering addict/alcoholic. I started drinking full-time at the age of about 14. Curiousity was the trigger for my first experience, and the sense that alcohol made me "above it all" was more or less the reason for my continued use, eventually, the use crosses the very very fine line into abuse, but that was much latter in my life.I had my first mind altering substance when I was about 11, it was in the form of marijuana in a bowl of tomato soup, given to me by a friend of my Dads. Of course, I didn't even know it was in the soup, and didn't know why I started felling strange either.
But to get to one of my points, jail absolutey helped me hit bottom. It was my second trip to jail in 6 months, I woke up with a hangover, called someone to get me out, and in my mind I said the usual "this has got to stop" knowing full well that as soon as I felt better, nothing would change. And knowing this, knowing that this type of insane behavior (the definition of insanity: repeating the same behavior over and over and over, expecting a different outcome every single time.)was the pattern of my life for so many years, I was ....a million times more desperate and defeated than you can possibly imagine.
What was different in this situation was:
1. Someone (whom I considered a dope fiend!)told me where they had gotten help.
2. I went to this place and asked for help.
3.I stayed in residential treatment for 11 months, did what I was told to do, opened my mind to to the possibility that another human being might actually know more than I did about how to help me stay sober.
4.I will be 10 years clean and sober in April.
I was the drunk driver you've been talking about....I would love to give all my arresting officers a big hug for helping me hit bottom...I would like to thank Elmwood womens facility, for humilating me into thinking it was my responsibility for my current situation, and not the fault of anyone and every thing else in the entire universe I could dream up to point the finger and blame for my behavior.
They call them "moments of clarity" sort of glimpses of recognition that your behavior is dangerous, drinking and driving maybe isn't such a great thing. The miracle part of this whole thing is when I finally acted on one of these moments of clarity.
Well, jail time does help some of us experience some clarity mixed in with all the humiliation.
posted on January 6, 2001 10:13:42 AM new
Bravo Eve (hope you dont mind me calling you that...but youre Eve to me now) on your 10 years.
Again, I have to say that one cannot be sober or "get" sober until THEY are ready. Rehab, AA, NA, assisted living homes...nothing will make one sober until THE PERSON themselves is ready. My ex roomie just got out of rehab that was 30 days. Yes, she is as wealthy as any celeb, and could afford it. No, it didnt work even though SHE says it did. Shes in denial about as much as RDJ is. She must go back for another 90 days, and even though she claims shes "better", its a crock because the day she got out, the same MO started in again. She has not hit her "bottom", nor will she hit it because she has everything at her disposal...unlimited money, unlimited rehabs, unlimited self-disgust and unlimited means to go down, come up, go down, come up. Same as RDJ. Once he has no funds, no celeb friends waiting in the wings, no home, living on the streets or under overpasses, no food, no fix, no high class call girls...maybe then he will WANT what only HE can do. It may or may not happen. But until HE does it, nobody can do it for him. So, if he breaks the law, then he is no different than anyone else. Throw him in there and leave him there til his time is served. Just like everyone else.
posted on January 6, 2001 11:00:47 AM new
Thanks, Maui!
Hitting bottom is as individual an experience as each abuser is individual. Tolerance and the ability to blame other circumsatances outside of yourself can linger on inan addict sometimes until they die. Denial is that strong in certain individuals because taking responsibility for these types of actions, means utterly facing these actions, and experiencing a huge avalanche of shame....who wants to willingly do that? Fear and denial keeps an addict in their cacoon of delusion, and as I say, some will never face their fears and some of us do.
posted on January 6, 2001 01:13:41 PM new
And, which is worse, Alcohol, drugs or cigarettes?
Alcohol and drugs alter your brain and your impaired actions can endanger or injure innocent victims. Other than children around smokers which are truly innocent - all others inhaling a cigarette smokers 2nd hand smoke have the ability to get out of the situation and if they do not they are responsibility for any health risks they place themselves in.
HCQ,
If your recovered friends tell you that the meetings do not have drugs available nor does jail or that programs are readily available for those that want - that is a crock of crap. Name a program in any state that accepts a willing addict without the money to pay for it. I would love to talk to them as I have done very extensive research in both California and Washington and that is not the case.
So, please prove me wrong - name a rehab in house facility that will take a willing addict without money. I would love for you to prove me wrong on this one.
As the one recovered poster wrote - hitting bottom is different for all as they will then have to face all the problems they are running from - most think what for - which is sad for their family and friends but that is their choice and a decision they have to live with.
posted on January 7, 2001 06:56:51 AM new
I see a protracted game of "yes, but" starting. There will always be a "reason" for some people to stay out of treatment - those people aren't "like me," my family and friends will know (like they don't know you're an addict), it costs too much (but not as much as your habit), they're all a bunch of hypocrites (but YOU are the only person whose hypocrisy you need to be worried about). I'm not going to get involved. BTDT.
But I did spend 15 minutes doing a Dogpile search. Here are the first half-dozen or so places nationwide that accept virtually any health insurance, or work on a sliding scale, or are government-funded:
posted on January 7, 2001 01:23:54 PM new
"There will always be a "reason" for some people to stay out of treatment" Nice try - but you have no clue.
As there are always those who do not know what they are talking about. Did you call any of the places you listed? There is no sliding scale - pay up front or have insurance. Exactly what I said.
I do not believe what any addict says so I personally made the calls etc. and a sliding scale program in house treatment does not exist.
Would you care to try again or at a minimum call one before you come on here claiming that if an addict does not get treatment it is solely because they do not want it. You haven't found a program yet that has a sliding scale for in house so your point means nothing.
posted on January 7, 2001 02:41:51 PM new
Just another posters opinion.
Users with or without money/insurance, etc. have to want and choose to get clean. It won't matter if they can afford a treatment program or not. They have to want recovery more than they've ever wanted anything in their lives.
From what we were told by counselors at an in-house treatment facility, in Santa Clara County, the success rate (%) of users isn't any higher whether a person receives in-patient care or attends AA or NA meetings. All the AA-like self help groups *have* worked for many and it doesn't cost a cent. All one need do is to ask for help. Those who share their struggles, on a day to day basis, (sometimes minute to minute) will be there to support them. The user we acted 'as family' for was encouraged, by the staff, to attend the AA or NA meetings after his 30 day program was completed.
As far as forcing treatment on users who violate the law, it's my opinion that it's a waste of money and time. You can't force treatment on anyone. But, until they do choose to come to terms with their problem, if they break the law, society should be protected from them.
posted on January 7, 2001 03:23:53 PM new
I did not say that "if an a addict does not get treatment it is solely because they do not want it".
I DID say that it was not my friends' experience that, as you claim, "unless you have 5K or become a woa is me case on one of the talk shows that want to 'save you' getting into a reputable drug treatment in house center is impossible".
None of my recovered friends had $5K to their name. None went on a talk show. Although some did residential detox, not all did.
They have all, however, regularly attended those NA/AA meetings which you dismiss as being a "joke". Funny, for the longest time that was their opinion too.
But heck, I see that insurance-covered isn't enough, nor is sliding scale. You want free. And inpatient only will do. (Hmm....would you prefer horseback riding or Tai-Bo as your afternoon activity?)
Fine.
Call your local Salvation Army office. ALL their services, including residential treatment, are free.
(Incidentally, for those of you grousing about the SA's thrift store prices, these rehab centers are fully funded by those proceeds.)
Here are the first half a dozen or so other, non-SA, residential programs in San Francisco that are either free or sliding-scale:
Oznam Detox Center, 415-621-6471
Mia House (African-American mothers only)
415-467-5301
Haight Ashbury Drug Detox. Program 415-565-1908
Aviva House (pregnant women only) 415-431-4404
For referrals to other programs: San Francisco Target City 1-800-750-2727 or 415-522-7100
I'm not going to engage further in this game. I've seen it far too many times before, thank you.
The problem with drug addicts and alcoholics is that they have usually
lost their job and their insurance. Without insurance none of these
facilities that you listed will let anybody in the door.
posted on January 7, 2001 03:58:36 PM new
HCQ
........"But heck, I see that insurance-covered isn't enough, nor is sliding scale. You want free. And inpatient only will do. (Hmm....would you prefer horseback riding or Tai-Bo as your afternoon activity?)"......
The comment above is not fair. Nobody
wants free just for the hell of it. Nobody
wants inpatient care in order to play games
in the afternoon.
These people are without money. Some are
homeless. And believe it or not, some of
these people are motivated to eliminate
their addiction. But, help is not available.
Now, we can spend money on jails, which
accomplish nothing. Why can't this great
country spend money on health care?
posted on January 7, 2001 03:58:36 PM new
My point is mute as you do not care to hear and are trying to so easily dismiss what I have said.
I am not the addict - something I think you are not quite getting. Linda K - yes, meetings work for occasional users who get hooked - they do not work for long term addicts as the first step to getting clean. The body has to be detoxed first - that is where the programs come into affect.
HCQ - Read the post - no where did I say FREE - I said sliding scale - in fact, using your own terms - and that is not the case. There is no sliding scale - you have insurance or you do not. BTW - you now mention alcoholic as your friend is - that is different and there are far more programs for that addiction than there is for drug addicts.
I know reality. I personally did the research and the addict does want help. The programs are not out there unless you have the funds. End of case. There are therapists that are addiction specialists and they will confirm what I have said. BTW - he has gone to meetings for 1.5 years and the meetings alone do not help addicts come clean. They are a resource center and a great place for clean addicts to socialize with those with the same struggles but for a person wanting to get clean - who has been a long term addict - that is not the case. Long term addicts have killed part of their brain, therefore - without anti-depressants they will not ever be happy in their normal skin. Without insurance or funds to get anti-depressants - they go back to drugs as that is what they are used for.
Linda - you are absolutely correct in that jail forced treatments generally do not work unless the jail has become the bottom for an addict. Otherwise it is something to do to get out of a long term sentence but not necesarrily something they truly in their soul want to do. I just mentioned it because if an addict without a record wants to get clean - that is a choice - break the law with a possesion charge and they will send you and pay for it all.
I could go on forever and ever on this subject. Until I did extensive research, I too, believed that any addict that was not clean just did not want to be. That there were programs for all. But, sadly, that is not the case.
posted on January 8, 2001 12:17:01 AM new
While I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of detox centers/inpatient drug treatment centers are too costly for uninsured people, I have to differ with the idea that most drug addicts can't quit without inpatient treatment such as the kind we're discussing. I've had a number of friends who became addicted to drugs (heroin, methamphetamine and prescription drugs among others). Most of them also had drinking problems along with their drug addiction. One or two had just an alcohol addiction alone. With a couple of exceptions, the ones who are now no longer drinking and drugging did not get clean through rehab centers, they got clean/sober through AA, NA, or RR (rational recovery, a lesser known program not based on a higher power). These were not lightly addicted people.
From what they have told me, for a lot of addicts, other (recovered) addicts know more about the withdrawal and recovery process and are more helpful to them in getting through it than so called treatment counselors or even drug-treatment doctors do.
posted on January 8, 2001 05:25:44 AM new
Did any of you watch the program on Heroin users on MSNBC last night? I haven't checked their website yet, but maybe this story can be found on their website.
It spoke to the issue of the increase in Heroin users in the US, especially in 'small town America'. Two towns they targeted were Lancaster and Lewistown, PA. where people were going to Philadelphia to buy the cheap, and 85% pure, heroin that is flooding our country, from Columbia.
Low cost tar heroin that's being brought in through Mexico and making it's way all through CA., OR., and WA. was discussed too.
The program spoke to the issue of lack of resourses for addicts. Although the US government is spending 3.? BILLION dollars for drug treatment programs. That does seem like a drop in the bucket when there are so many addicts that need help.
The program showed many families in their own 'war on drugs' with family members who were users. Here were families who do have insurance or the funds to pay for inpatient stays and yet their children were still returning to drug use. That was what I found most upsetting. Even after expensive inpatient treatment, all but a few returned to using. The power of heroin is that strong.
One drug inpatient facility said that sadly their success rate was only 1%. That pretty much matches what we were told by the counselors at the Santa Clara facility. They told us their success rate was between 3% - 5% and that was back in the late 80's. Expensive treatment and very low success rates.
Some users, who's family had funds (or insurance), had been through these programs many times. One mothers sharing especially touched my heart when she shared she was more than discouraged with inpatient treatment and the counslers after her child had been through 4 inpatient drug centers and was still using.
There are 3.? BILLION federal $$ being spent to help addicts. But it seems like a drop in the bucket when there are so many who are addicted.
boysmommy3 It appears to me that you have someone in your life and that you're trying to find help for them. While you have gathered lots of knowledge about obtaining/not being able to obtain help for them, I believe there are still things you might not be aware of. When you said that groups like NA, AA, etc. "They are a resource center and a great place for clean addicts to socialize with those with the same struggles but for a person wanting to get clean - who has been a long term addict - that is not the case." I have to respectfully disagree. No one can help an addict like another clean addict. They challange each other to be truthful, to 'own' their addiction, etc. They've been there, done that. Addicts do not use these free programs to socialize....they are there to try and stay alive and clean. This is the last hope for many and it has worked for those who want to get clean. Please research the success rates of the inpatient treatment center programs, especially for the 'long term drug user you refer to. Ask some facilities what their success rates are. Believe me, we were shocked when the SC facility told us (acting as family) that only 3 - 5 % would stay off drugs. I do understand your frustration and wish you and your friend well. This feels overwhelming at times and appears to be getting worse.
Near the end of the program, when asked why more money wasn't being spent to help addicts recover....someone made the statement that they felt more funds should be used to keep kids from trying drugs, therefore not becoming addicted. not waiting until they become addicted and then stepping in.
There aren't unlimited funds to spend on these issues and deciding where to put the money that is available, is a very hard decision.
You will find in every major hospital an entire floor devoted to
drug and alcoholic addiction problems for those addicts with money
and insurance.
"There aren't unlimited funds to spend on these issues and deciding where to put the money that is available is a very hard decision."
There are unlimited funds to spend on these issues, both prevention
and treatment. Since addicted inmates consitute a majority of the
prison population, I can't see why it should be a hard decision to
allocate more funds to alleviate this problem.
Helen
[ edited by HJW on Jan 8, 2001 08:16 AM ]
[ edited by HJW on Jan 8, 2001 08:18 AM ]
posted on January 8, 2001 09:32:04 AM new
To those who may be lurking, or have friends or relatives with drug or drinking problems, I urge you find an ALANON meeting and attend. Any AA or NA listed phone number will have the info you need to find ALANON. They have meetings for adults and also, there is TEEN ALANON. These meetings wont make it all go away...but it will help YOU understand your friend or relatives battle and now to deal with them whether they are using, or sober. Getting sober is just as hard on all involved as staying loaded, because there are levels that must be known for each individual. It still settles on the addict themself to WANT sobriety...then the battle begins to stay that way. ALANON will help, because you are NOT alone with it, and others in the same boat are there paddling with you.
LinkaK, just wanted to say I agree with what you said and to wave hello to you. The phrase you stated, that having addicts assist others is the best form of guidance in the AA and NA meetings. In my own personal experience, I dont think AA or NA is perfect, but its a start, and its free. So is ALANON.
posted on January 8, 2001 09:55:30 AM new
Lots of valid statements here coming from different viewpoints. I will disagree that the long term drug addict needs "drugs" to maintain there sobriety, or resort suicide or re-addiction. Also, an alcoholic is more likely to die during detoxification than a drug addict, although the process takes a much shorter time. Yes, insurance programs are no longer covering drug and alcohol treatment like they were 15 years ago. Now you are lucky to get 3 days detox, and the rest is as an outpatient program, which makes it a little more "voluntary" for the user as to whether he/she really wants to pursue breaking the addiction, this compared to the average 30 day residential treatment programs offered until the advent of HMO's and cost cutting about 15 or so years ago. And I agree with HCQ 100%...the programs are out there. They are available if someone is truly serious and desperate for help. And don't forget that all reputable residential treatment programs use AA, CA, NA programs, IN HOUSE. Hazelden does, Betty Ford does, and I believe that the VA Administration does now, although they didn't back when I became sober 17 years ago.
What it breaks down to is this. There is NOTHING that can force a person into recovery and staying there, except his/her own resolve.. the old "sick and tired of being sick and tired". You can have all the expensive treatment programs, government freebies, charity do-gooders, or walk in off the street meetings, but unless the addict or alcoholic is just plain ready to live or die there is not much anyone can do. There is no magic pill, no vaccine or injection, no cure. People need to realize this. Education, support, understanding, tough love, networking, these are all great...but the motivation has to be there. Sadly, some people will never have the motivation nor the ability to change their addictive behavior, for whatever reason. But some of us do succeed, and while it is important to have empathy for those other individuals like Robert Downey, we must NOT ENABLE them. The ultimate choice is theirs. The tools for peace from drugs and alcohol is out there for anyone that needs them.
posted on January 8, 2001 10:23:27 AM new
Hi Helen - You state, "There are unlimited funds to spend on these issues, both prevention
and treatment. Since addicted inmates consitute a majority of the
prison population, I can't see why it should be a hard decision to
allocate more funds to alleviate this problem."
Please understand I don't profess to have the answers to cure our nations problems, especially not the drug related ones. And after watching this program, my feelings of hopelessness were increased. I am only sharing my opinions and some of the issues they discussed on the Heroin problem last night on MSNBC.
I can't agree with your above statement. How do you come to the conclusion that "there are unlimited funds"? What funds on you speaking about please? I'm referring to the monies that are now allotted for our so-called 'war on drugs'. And this did include the money being spent to house inmate drug abusers. Are you referring to taking tax dollars from other areas and spending them on our drug issue? Just trying to understand where these 'unlimited funds' are going to come from.
On the program, last night, your question was raised. A statement was made by one of those who is responsible for appropriating these funds. They seemed to believe that, dollar wise, the money would be better used in the area of prevention. They seemed to feel it was more cost effective. They showed a current drug program (for inmates) that re-trained the inmates for jobs on the outside. They received counseling, attended regular meetings, and many seemed to own their problems. Problem was that once they were out, there were very few employers who wanted to hire an x-user who has a felony conviction. One of the counselors said they hadn't found a way to overcome that problem. Therefore, many users once released returned to drugs.
The main thing I got from this program was that there aren't unlimited funds. So careful decisions have to be made as to what part of the many drug issues the monies that are available are going to be spent on. Cost wise, they believe prevention shows a better return on the dollar since keeping users clean can be a life-long, very expensive program.
Some of the statements made by those who work in this field, gave me the feeling they, too, felt a sense of 'the programs aren't working'.
It all has such a feeling of hopelessness to me. The families I watched (and met), who are going through this terrible struggle, seem to feel so helpless. They have done all they can, including getting inpatient treatments for their loved ones, who still return to the drugs.
The success rates at the inpatient facilities are very low. The drug programs that are now on-going in the prisons don't seem to be work, long term.
The program didn't seem to have many answers either. I think that's why the current beliefs are that we need to spend more of the money on prevention. Can't remember the statistics they quoted, but I believe there has been a three fold increase in heroin users in the last ??? (period of time).
posted on January 8, 2001 10:38:38 AM new
Hi Maui - You're so right. I guess unless and until someone goes to the meetings and see the 'miracles' that do happen there, they just can't understand programs like NA or AA. It's a learning experience for sure and I've seen it work so I personally know it can. The abusers just have to want to be clean and sober, bad enough, to make it work.
Your suggestion for the support groups for NA and AA are wonderful suggestions. Attending those sure makes one quickly realize that you can't help the user, but rather support them in their struggle. Also really makes one realize how easy it is to 'enable' another person, especially when their behavior affects you (anyone) personally. Like a wife who's sole support comes from an addict. It's hard for her not to enable, thereby (she thinks) making/keeping things more stable for herself. NOT!!
Hi to KatyD too. *Big* hugs being sent your way. {{{{{{KatyD}}}}}} Congratulations to you on your continuing recovery.
posted on January 8, 2001 10:45:00 AM new
Just wanted to send a big congratulations to even59 also. Didn't mean to overlook you. What you shared helps others facing this problem understand it from the 'most important' view....that of the user.
Sincerely, I appreciate the courage it took for you to come forward. Lots of positive wishes coming your way for your continuing success.
posted on January 8, 2001 12:24:20 PM new
Re: AA etc.
I don't have a lot of confidence in the blind leading the blind.
From my personal experience, what I found in my earliest days in AA and NA meetings were people who were "just like me". They weren't pointing an accusing finger at me,saying I was a no good, weak willed loser dope fiend. They were people in variuos stages of recovery, some with many years of clean time some with maybe a day or so. All of them had experinces similar to my own. I learned from the old-timers and new comers equally, but one served to show me what I didn't want back in my life (ie: really sick and close to death looking new comers) and what I could have (old timers with every possible type of life success). Some of the new-comers aren't as beat up as others, mainly because, like I said before, our "bottom's" are all vastly different. I went to meetings with some of the poshest socialites in Menlo Park. Their bottoms were night and day compared to some of the rest of us. But what we all had in common is ALLLLL that mattered. And that was addiction. (We consider alcohol to be a drug, BTW).On the outside I found more rejection in the most hostile and shunning terms. Rightfully so, since I was not giving the people around me any reason to support me. When you don't understand a persons behavior, you usually react in a negative way....human nature.
What I found to be most tiresome about meetings (and why I no longer attend them) was the notion that if I didn't go to meetings, I would positively drink/use again. Not so far.
Linda K,Thank you for the kind words!
posted on January 8, 2001 01:34:30 PM new
[i]And, I wonder about the associations that are developed in such
groups.[/i] Part of the whole idea of the AA model (or NA, CA, etc) IS THE ASSOCIATIONS that are developed, sponsorship being one of them. Sponsorship is a mentoring relationship between a newly sober addict and someone who has years of sobriety. This sponsorship takes the form of personal counseling, support, often "homework exercises" and if desired, leading the sponsoree through the 12 steps. I have seen people sober for a year become a "sponsor", but I frankly question anyone able to complete the first 10 steps within one year. At any rate, it is the newcomer who chooses the sponsor (or asks that he/she become their sponsor), and while such a request is flattering, hopefully a responsible but unqualified person with limited sobriety would gracefully decline to accept the request. But I've seen this happen, and such "sponsorships" can be very tricky and disastrous.
even59, congrats on your 10 years! And I agree you aint' necessarily gonna drink again just because you don't continue to go to AA meetings. But as a dear friend used to say, "This is a disease that constantly tells us we don't have it". In other words, complacency can be very dangerous. People who go to meetings are there because they need to be. That line is used again and again to "scare" newcomers that are in danger of becoming complacent about their sobriety. Mostly it's tailored to the ones who think, "ok, I've attended meetings for a year, I'm cured". NOT. Some lifelong members have developed deep friendships and relationships within the group and stay because of the socialization aspect. Some people become more comfortable and move on knowing that at just about any time, any where, they can find a meeting to go to if they need to. Heck, they have impromptu ones on airplanes and cruise ships! You must do what you are most comfortable with. I would make a comment about something you posted in another thread having to do with "drinking dreams". These are an indication that there are still some issues for you, fears, anxieties, etc. It's actually healthy and helps fight the old complacency problem, but just be super aware of these dreams, and if you no longer attend meetings, no doubt you have some close friends to "talk about stuff" in lieu of the "group thing". Right?
posted on January 8, 2001 01:38:43 PM new
Eve said "What I found to be most tiresome about meetings (and why I no longer attend them) was the notion that if I didn't go to meetings, I would positively drink/use again."
Amen to that. Another gripe with AA and NA is that it IS a group of people. Human beings, and those human beings are not perfect, nor any different than anyone else, so what they say in those meetings are not necessarily kept there in confidence. THe smaller the town, the more the talk. "What you see here, what you say here, what you hear here, let it stay here" isnt. Keep that in mind. My loved one didnt go to AA because he said just talking about it made him want one more. The friend in NA had to go because if she didnt sit and compare, share and vent every day, she would go looking for those who WANTED her to get loaded with them. Having a decent sponsor helps too..someone who will be there when you need them, guide when needed, but not be a co-dependant at the same time. Hard to do...and try doing it sober with someone who is newly sober. Those good sponsors are to be commended, in my book. ALANON works the same way...attend a meeting, and then get a sponsor. They WILL help, believe me.
posted on January 8, 2001 02:56:09 PM new
Katy_D,
Right, yes I do have a support system of very close sober friends, one I helped get sober 5 years ago, and the other helped me get sober about 10 years ago. None of us are regular meeting go-ers. And all the rest of my family and friends are just really happy to have me healthy again.
I appreciate your insight on drinking dreams! Very educational, thank you!
) on your 10 years.
