posted on December 20, 2000 11:17:41 AM new
Actually, I'm waiting for paint on a riflestock to set before recoating it.
I've heard all of that. The only pointed portion of your treatise is 'Takes away that fundamental concept of faith wouldn't it".
Yes, as I thought I said, it would have answered yay or nay those fundamental issues of faith and if yay, would have made less necessary the continuing campaign of persuasion that has been conducted ever since.
posted on December 20, 2000 01:21:52 PM new
Borillar says:
"They made that change that women could not be priests and such because it drew attention away from the most important fundamental change in the entire church's history: the dogma was altered to a Fundamentalist point of view." I have to disagree that this is a move to a "Fundamentalist" point of view, but rather a move back to the direct teachings of God's Word.
I Timothy 2:12 "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."
posted on December 20, 2000 01:38:00 PM new
krs - But that also would eliminate the need to waste time in the flesh on this earth. If you knew what was there why would you waste time in this life. Wouldn't you just cut out the filler in this case life in the flesh and go straight to the glory of heaven.
Like the titanic example. The filler is what makes the story of our lives in the flesh interesting. And what's even better, we each decide what degree of creative license we will apply to our lives. But in applying that creative license and exercise of our precious gift of freewill we have to choose Good vs. Evil.
Since you want to end around and you have drawn me into a religous discussion. Ask yourself this why didn't God just destroy Satan and call it that. Here's my take on that one.
God as we know is a God of love, compassion and all that other great stuff. Satan's not being destroyed is God's ultimate show of LOVE, COMPASSION, and most of all PATIENCE. See keep in mind that like us the Angels of which satan is one were also created by God. God loves all of his creations. Not destroying Satan right off the bat is God showing patience and hope that Satan will change and repent. But keep in mind that at some point that patience will run out and God will extend his wrath on Satan and those who have chosen to follow him.
Can't really discuss some of these concepts back in forth via a threaded board. So much gets lost in finding words, a lot of it requires starting at a different place to get where we seem to always start, and at times I use the wrong words to communicate a concept. Like why were we created in the first place? Before answering keep in mind we are created in his image. With that we share all of his qualities. Consider both of those statements and then answer why we were created. Forming an understanding why we were created in the first place. Helps every other religious concept fall into place.
posted on December 20, 2000 01:43:15 PM new
My purpose in this thread is to hopefully provide something more interesting to discuss than the current weather conditions (which is a news topic for some).
I think that it is important that we as Americans try to reconcile both our political beliefs and our spiritual beliefs together. By doing so with close scrutiny and complete honesty, I believe that we can root out the hypocrisy in ourselves. It is far, far easier to be a Liberal and reconcile with the teachings of Christianity than it is try it as a Conservative.
Can someone be what the current definition of Conservative means and also claim to be a follower of Jesus? Conservatism in its most raw form wants to take us back to pre-Renaissance days, wherein Might-is-Right Monarchies dominated 99.99 percent of the population. These Monarchies controlled all of the resources, withheld all the knowledge and education from the masses (except for a few, very rich merchants), and Humanity lived in never-ending poverty, squalor, ignorance and disease - sheer misery. This is the direction that the GOP takes today, although it was not always so.
Conservatives tout Family Values as their holiest of planks, but Jesus did not. For in Luke 20:35 these words were spoken by Jesus: "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage." (KJV). Instead, Christ taught the spiritual values of love for one another and the love of God above all else was more important. Clearly, one can not be for Family Values and also not have any compassion or love for everyone and still call themselves a Christian.
As far as Christians are concerned, to enslave a populace, to turn back the teachings of science to a literal interpretation of the Bible, to support racist power factions that seek to murder and enslave others, to reduce the human spirit to mere flesh -- these things are against what Christ taught. And being a Conservative as they are these days, they are not Followers of Christ but of someone else.
posted on December 20, 2000 02:00:25 PM new
One of advantage of being an atheist on the Round Table is that one never feels on the defensive. It's always one religious belief bashing another religious belief.
posted on December 20, 2000 02:03:06 PM new
OK Irene, here's a mechanic's joke just for you:
A middle-aged man enters a plush Beverly Hills pet store and asks to buy a canary.
The proprietor replies, "We have three canaries. This one is $50,000, the middle is $500 and the one on the end is $5."
"Why the differences in price?" asks the man.
"Well," says the proprietor, "The $5,000 canary is very smooth under his beak and can sing exquisitely. The $500 canary is rougher under his beak and can sing only so-so. The $5
canary is really rough under the beak and he can barely croak a note!"
"What prevents me from buying the $5 canary and filing the underneath of his bill smooth? asks the man.
"It's been done." replies the proprietor, "But you have to be careful. There's a nerve there and if you take off too much and hit that nerve your bird is going to die."
"Heck," says the man, " I work as a machinist at a large Southern California aerospace plant. I'm always dealing in precision machining. Why, a-tenth-of-thousandth of an inch is nothing
to me! I'll take the $5 canary and file his beak smooth."
So the man buys the $5 canary and takes it home.
The next day he is back at the pet shop with a sad look on his face. The proprietor sees his expression and asks, "Did your bird die?"
"Yes." replies the somber man.
"You took off too much and hit that nerve didn't you?"
"No." replies the man, "I crushed his head in the vice."
posted on December 20, 2000 02:11:25 PM newktsclutter, you said: "I have to disagree that this is a move to a "Fundamentalist" point of view, but rather a move back to the direct teachings of God's Word"
Yes, it does. As since you can't say, "I'll obey this, but not that!" then you ought to concider these other biblical models of behavior towards women:
Unto the women he (God) said "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shall bring forth children and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." -Genesis 3:16
If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days... But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks... - Leviticus 12:2-8
And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even. The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even. And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the beds whereon he lieth shall be unclean... This is the law of him that hath an issue, and of him whose seed goeth from him, and is defiled therewith; and of her that is sick of her flowers, and of him that hath an issue, of the man, and of the woman, and of him that lie with her that is unclean.
- Leviticus 15:17-33
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
- Colossians 3:18
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands... - 1 Peter 3:1
Likewise ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel... - 1 Peter 3:7
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
- I Corinthians 14:34
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man... - 1 Corinthians 11:3
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
- 1 Corinthians 11:9
But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband: Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to
swell; and this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly swell, and thy thigh to rot: and the woman shall say Amen, amen. - Numbers 5:20-22
But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die...
- Deuteronomy 22:20-21
It is better to live in a corner of the roof than in a house shared with a contentious woman. - Proverbs 25:24
Now that she is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth supplications and prayers night and day. But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. - 1 Timothy 5:5-6
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
- 1 Timothy 2:11-12
Wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church... - Ephesians 5:22-23
Clearly, this is not how Jesus saw women and their roles. So, ktsclutter, we'll take Jesus and you can have the rest of the Bible . . .
posted on December 20, 2000 02:16:33 PM new
Could you edit in that about "better it is to live on one small corner of the roof than in a house with a chatboard woman"?
posted on December 20, 2000 04:58:18 PM newI think that it is important that we as Americans try to reconcile both our political beliefs and our spiritual beliefs together. (sic)
I don't, and don't support such an objective. Separation of church and state, all the way. Keep religion out of politics, thanks all the same.
posted on December 20, 2000 05:57:20 PM new
Pareau-I'm not sure how one can separate church from state. We've got 'In God We Trust' all over our dollar bills. The people from England came here to get away from the Church of England because they were Anglican <sp?> religious persuasion. We still put our hand on the Holy Bible in most courts.
I don't know, I know people want that separation, but its mostly the whole point we are here. And also, others, from other countries can come here to be free to practice, worship, whatever in their own religion.
posted on December 20, 2000 08:54:02 PM new
Ktsclutter - Well, maybe not directly from God - I believe the words were "from God as told to Timothy, etc."
The writers could have put a little bit of spin on God's words from time to time based on their own culture, beliefs and so forth. Couldn't some of them on a busy day have said "naw, he couldn't have meant that - I'm gonna write this. "
Or God coulda been chewing on a bagel one morning and Timothy could have not understood everything that was being said. I can just see God, after reading what Timothy wrote, smacking his own forehead and saying "those putzs never get anything right." Course, that probably wouldn't be included in any Bible.
posted on December 20, 2000 11:36:40 PM new
Networker67,
But that also would eliminate the need to waste time in the flesh on this earth. If you knew what was there why would you waste time in this life. Wouldn't you just cut out the filler in this case life in the flesh and go straight to the glory of heaven.
I know what there is and I choose to remain here on earth because my glimpse of the other side taught me the importance of the lessons that we are learning here on earth. I understand that I am a spiritual being on a journey and that I am here because my spirit knows that this is where I'm supposed to be. To be honest, a part of me can't wait to return - but, aside from my desire to stay with my family in the flesh - I also realize that to "cut out this filler" would deprive myself and my loved ones of having the lessons brought to us in the way that the spirit (as a part of the one I call God) knows that we should have them. When we make the transition to the other side we find many levels of learning. Our spirit knows which level it needs to be at and that's where it goes. To circumvent your lessons here would keep you from ascending as quickly as you would otherwise. The higher the ascent, the higher the vibration, the closer the oneness to God. So, no - I wouldn't skip this part - even knowing what I know.
I'm enjoying your post btw, just wanted to give you more food for thought.
posted on December 21, 2000 04:24:58 AM new
mybiddness - That was beautiful. I always figured that some are more intune with the spirit and know the secrets. They stay to share the wisdom, knowledge, and love that those in the flesh thirst for. Your post reinforced that belief.
Borillar - Your take on the somewhat adverse to women words of the bible is interesting. I used to find some of that rather disheartening as well. Then an old man in France told me somethings that placed all of that in an interesting perspective. I spoke with that old guy for 8 hours on a train heading back to Mainz in Germany. Never knew what faith he was and he didn't say. But one thing in our conversation stuck with me forever.
"Search and understand the secret of why you were created and when you find it everything within creation becomes clear.
Dr. Beetle - You are right about that. But although not one of his teachings his appearance sure lead to a lot of division. It revealed that some people will do anything to remain in control. It showed others are perfectly willing to turn their backs even when in a position to do something. The 2000 years since his arrival has revealed that man still hasn't figured out the divine of concept of his love. And seem to have the hardest time accepting, Do unto to others as you would have them do unto you". All because they still cling to a warped sense of, "Do unto others as you please just make sure they never rise to do it back to you". Sounds like humanity has a long way yet to go.
krs - I guess you overlooked the fact that the gift of freewill makes life in the flesh a neccassary requirement. Because you have to spend time here to figure out Good from Evil. Your reward is undisclosed but the punishment is crystal clear. Just the thought of the punishment should convince humanity to do what's right. But some just choose to not beleive there is something else. Which is why that faith stuff is neccassary. I like it this way myself. Besides the path of God isn't an easy one.
posted on December 21, 2000 05:28:51 AM new
As a devout atheist, formerly of the Jewish persuasion, I have to confess I have always admired Jesus. His love of the poor, his concern for the outcasts of society, and above all, his humanity, makes him one of the truely great religious leaders.
Humanity I love; it's people I can't stand
posted on December 21, 2000 11:36:01 AM new
NeartheSea-
Do you know why not?
This question makes no sense whatsoever, as "In God We Trust" is indeed required to be printed on dollar bills.
and do you have a source that shows otherwise.
Taking this as a question asking if I know of courts that do not require you to place your hand on a bible, yes, I do have a source- my own personal experience. I have been on jury duty four times in two states, along with having been a sworn witness in several trials and a spectator in several more, and in not a single case, was anybody required to place their hand on a bible.
Doesn't the President when being inaugarated, put his hand on a Bible? Why is there a Christmas tree at the White House? And why is it that CHRISTMAS is a National Holiday in the United States of America?
I don't know.
Is there a reason you chose to avoid answering the questions I asked you?
posted on December 21, 2000 12:15:05 PM new
I must be old, I've seen it done (not on TV) in court. But I don't know if they do it now, as I believe you raise your right hand and swear to tell the truth, et al....
As for the dollar bill, the inscription ANNUIT COEPTIS (located on the back of the dollar, under the pyramid with the 'seeing eye') translates as "God has favored our undertakings," and refers to the many instances of Divine Providence during our Government's formation. In addition, the inscription NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM translates as "A new order of the ages," and signifies a new American era.
And I still don't know why that Christmas (which originally was a Christian celebration) is a National Holiday, nor do I know why a new President lays his hand on the Bible when being inaguarated. Again, I don't know why, politicians (ah the candidates, both) at the end of their speeches or statements always end them with
'And God Bless America'.
posted on December 21, 2000 02:10:37 PM new
NeartheSea-
Well, that is a fair description of the Great Seal. I'm not an expert in Latin, but I believe the translation of ANNUIT COEPTIS does not specifically refer to God, rather more of an inferrence.
My original question was regarding your statement:
I'm not sure how one can separate church from state. We've got 'In God We Trust' all over our dollar bills.
I understood you to be saying that it would be difficult to separate church from state, citing the fact that "In God We Trust" was on our dollar bills. My question to you was regarding the reason for the inclusion of that particular motto, which has nothing at all to do with the Great Seal, and has in fact, only been on the dollar bill since 1957.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
[ edited by mrpotatoheadd on Dec 21, 2000 02:16 PM ]
posted on December 21, 2000 06:45:07 PM new
You are partially correct- the Great Seal was first used in 1935, but not on a Federal Reserve note- it was a Silver Certificate. The $1 Federal Reserve note was first realeasd in 1963.
What you are apparently overlooking, however, is that the motto "In God We Trust" is not part of the Great Seal, and did not appear on the dollar bill until 1957. It has no relation whatsoever to our government's formation.
posted on December 22, 2000 11:30:47 PM new
The arguement of whether or not there is Free Will when it comes to Western Religions is a millinia-old question. It strikes me that if everything is pre-ordained, not Free Will, but all planned and done, then how could anyone be held responsible for bad behaviour? I mean, if there is no choice, how can you be responsible and be sent to Eternal Punishment?
On the other hand, if we do have Free Will, then how can we be punished for being given a free choice? It's not a frre choice when one one hand a god roars at you and tells you what damnation you'll catch some day if you don't do as he says: but then, you can do as you please! Some choice! No with Free Will, you can not be Eternally Punished.
This whole Hebrew thing about a single god who keep a private tourture dungeon on-hand for those who don't cow-tow to everything - or else, strikes me as less than a Loving God. The old Hebrew god who threw temper-tantrums if he didn't get his Whorship strikes me as describing the manners and morals of a Spoiled Brat than a dignified and totally accepting and loving God.
Sorry - I';ll just stick with Jesus and the dissention that he created between the Orthodox Jewish faith and His own words and teachings.
posted on December 23, 2000 04:02:50 AM new
How can you have free will with an all knowing god ?
How can prayers be answered by an all knowing god ?
If "He" knows the beginning and end and all in between, then everything must be pre-ordained. If it is not pre-ordained, then it follows that there must be things even "He" doesn't know. An all knowing good could not even change "His" mind, because "he" would know from the beginning that his mind would change and would not have taken a course that required change in the first place.
The only thing an all knowing god could grant us is the illusion of free will.
If we wish to accept the theory of free will, we must re-invent our god(s) and religion.
Religion offering an afterlife was invented to quell the depression and anxiety of man realizing that this "life" is all there is. It is an ingenious scheme of hope, non-existent bands of angels, and a god with rumors of miracles and a "devine" book authored and edited by man.
