posted on October 13, 2000 04:46:18 PM new
cdnbooks- I agree. I'm a Canuck that WAS awaiting PayPal's accepting Canadian bidders- but they have proven they absolutely can't be trusted with our money.
I won't be signing up with them if they ever get their act together up here.
posted on October 13, 2000 05:04:04 PM newhcross: I'm so sorry this has happened to you, and I hope all goes as you hope. Has PayPal indicated whether or not they are restricting this seller at all?
This is the final straw for me. I had taken a "wait & see" stance. I kept my account open, but was not using it--I was going to watch for a few months to see if PP could keep its nose clean. In less than a month they seem to have gone from bad to worse, every day bringing more tales of PP problems, PP waffling, etc. I will be closing my account this evening.
PayPalDamon: since you take messages from the boards back to PPs PTB, let them know that they are doing everything they possibly can to destroy their own company. I, personally, wouldn't trust or believe them now if they told me the sky was blue, much less let them handle any money.
Please answer these questions for me. If a seller was to fill a priority mail box with garbage (say used coffee grounds) and ship it (with proof of shipment) would the buyer be out of luck as far as the "buyer protection program"? What if the seller was to ship an empty box?
This is one of the reasons I think that PayPal should drop this BUYER/SELLER protection smoke screen altogether. It is a false sense of security and it obviously doesn't work.
posted on October 13, 2000 06:33:53 PM newThis is one of the reasons I think that PayPal should drop this BUYER/SELLER protection smoke screen altogether. It is a false sense of security and it obviously doesn't work
Don't miss the point, it might be working fine. The point of the "buyer protection plan" is to direct buyers away from the very real protection offered to credit card buyers under federal law.
posted on October 13, 2000 06:35:22 PM new
Well I do agree that it is unfair what happened and you should be reimbursed, I dont see it as paypals fault but as the sellers. Paypal is not the one selling or committing the fraud here, it is the seller that has committed fraud. The action you are taking by going through the local law enforcement is the way to go because you need to press charges against that person not paypal.
posted on October 13, 2000 06:45:13 PM newPaypal is not the one selling or committing the fraud here
No one suggested that PayPal is guilty of fraud.
However, as the charging merchant, they are responsible for the charge, and responsible to the buyer to make sure that the charge results in buyer receiving what is paid for.
Perhaps pedantically, PayPal is one step removed.
The credit card company is responsible by federal law. However, as part of any standard merchant agreement, merchant accepts this responsibility from the credit card company as a condition of being allowed to charge cards.
posted on October 13, 2000 07:32:47 PM new
The buyer did receive what was paid for, just not in the condition that it was advertised. It says quite plainly in the paypal agreement "If you purchase an item from a Verified Seller and do not receive your purchased goods, you are entitled to a full refund of the purchase amount".
Lil Laura Lou
posted on October 13, 2000 07:44:05 PM new
PayPal's TOU clearly states that only non-shipment of goods is covered.
Here's the first graph from Buyer Protection section of the TOU:
"Buyer Protection Guarantee. Purchases from Sellers who are Verified Users will be guaranteed against fraud up to $5,000 per Buyer per year if the Seller fails to ship the paid-for goods. This policy does not apply to disputes about the quality or attributes of delivered goods or to goods lost in the mail. The Seller's verification status is available on the Service website when a Buyer confirms payment."
Buyers will have to rely on their credit card chargeback rights for any further protection. Good reason to ONLY use a credit card for PayPal purchases.
posted on October 13, 2000 07:50:48 PM new
I have done chargebacks on my Visa debit cards through 2 different banks. I have also had a debit card stolen and all the money charged by the thief was returned to my account by the bank.
In my experience, Visa is backing up the debit cards just like the credit cards.
posted on October 13, 2000 08:06:31 PM new
Heather..I wasn't accusing you of being dishonest. I was pointing out that paypal has no way of knowing who is the victim..you or the seller.
The fact that you have been a staunch supporter of paypal does not give you any more credibility than the seller. At least not to paypal.
Paypal's TOS is pretty clear that any disagreement about the merchandise itself, other than non-delivery, is between the buyer and the seller. Paypal disclaims any responsibility for the condition of the merchandise. Personally, I'm glad they take that position...I don't want them deciding if the item I sent matched the description. There are cheating buyers out there who WILL switch merchandise. I would hate to think paypal would get embroiled in that type of a situation..especially if they side with someone who has done more business with them than I have..or who was a stauncher supporter of them than I am (especially since I have many doubts about their service and practices and have loudly posted those concerns).
A buyer in your position has other options..one being a chargeback to the credit card company.
posted on October 13, 2000 08:24:40 PM new
Amy, No, it should not matter how much I have supported Paypal, what should matter is that I have proof stacked to the ceiling about this seller and proof that he defrauded me. Paypal should do something about him, but they won't. I intend to recover my money, and if Paypal should restrict my account and punish me they will surely regret it. I would not mind the loss of money so much if they were making any attempt to help me out here, but nothing so far. This really sucks, and I am so disappointed in Paypal, I thought they were better than that. Heather
posted on October 13, 2000 08:53:27 PM new
As a seller (honest descriptions, good packer, quick shipper) I don't want to use a CC service that gets me tangled up in chargebacks etc....
Unfortunately I don't see how PP or any other service can make both buyers and sellers completely happy...
posted on October 13, 2000 11:21:22 PM new
Heather,
I am somewhat familiar with VISA chargeback rules as a former bank examiner and you should have no problems contacting the bank that issued your credit card and executing a chargeback. If PayPal is freezing accounts that have executed chargebacks, I would highly recommend that you contact VISA directly and file a complaint, start with [email protected]. This would probably also be a legitimate lawsuit so you may want to contact your attorney and definitely should spend the 5 minutes to file a compliant with the FTC that I described in prior threads if PayPal freezes your account.
The whole concept of fraud protection, insurance, verification, etc. from PayPal was part of their business model that in my opinion really took advantage of the uneducated. You already have excellent protection from the federal laws already in place and on top of that you would be surprised to see how pro-consumer the VISA policies and procedures manuals are that financial institutions must comply with, perhaps that's why they are confidential in some cases. I could tell some interesting stories but we can save those for another day. Good luck.
posted on October 13, 2000 11:38:22 PM new
I thought I read posts in other threads about sellers' accounts being frozen by PayPal due to 'the item shipped was not as described'. So why doesn't this seller's PayPal account get frozen?
posted on October 15, 2000 12:03:41 AM new
It looks like maybe I have my problem solved? I got an email from Paypal this evening and here is what they had to say:
Dear Ms. Crossland,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
X.com's Buyer Protection Guarantee protects Buyers against fraud
when they pay a Verified Seller and do not receive the promised
goods. This policy does not apply to disputes about the quality
or attributes of delivered goods, or goods that have been lost in
the mail.
To qualify for protection under our Guarantee, the Buyer must use
PayPal to purchase from a Seller who is Verified. To become
Verified, members must provide us with proof that they have
opened an account at a bank or other financial institution.
Because these institutions are required by law to screen account
holders, the PayPal verification system increases security when
you pay parties you do not know. Buyers can tell whether a
Seller is Verified or Unverified before sending payment by
looking at the Confirmation page.
A $25 dispute minimum applies to all claims.
Buyers who do not receive their merchandise are urged to make
several attempts to contact the Seller and resolve the dispute
before lodging a formal complaint; some disputes are the result
of miscommunication between the two parties involved. If goods
have been lost in the mail, Buyer and Seller should file
appropriate claims through the insurance obtained at the time of
shipment.
Should you decide to dispute a payment to a Verified member, you
may file your claim no sooner than 30 days and no later than 60
days from the date of your payment. X.com (and its intermediary
agents) will investigate your claim and enforce the final ruling.
X.com guarantees reimbursement to Buyers defrauded by Verified
Sellers within 30 days from the date the claim is filed.
The Buyer Protection Guarantee is effective as of 8/1/00, and
applies to transactions paid through the PayPal system on or
after 8/1/00.
The Buyer Protection Guarantee offers protection of up to $5000
per PayPal member per year.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us
again.
Sincerely,
Kris
PayPal Customer Service
X.com's PayPal
___________________________________________
Now, a few questions, if anyone knows. If they give me my $301 back, will they freeze the sellers account? Will they try and get the $301 back from him? I have a fraud report going through ebay right now, I have not sent in the claim yet because I was getting part of the money back from my debit card, and now that Paypal may pay me back I can't send it in. I know that ebay reads the fraud reports, if you have proved that the seller defrauded you will they do anything to them? Would it be easier to proceede with the chargebacks, file ebay insurance, or hope that Paypal comes through for me? I am really at a loss here on what to do. Heather
posted on October 18, 2000 03:08:01 PM new
hcross:
This policy does not apply to disputes about the quality or attributes of delivered goods, or goods that have been lost in the mail.
This was taken from the email that PayPal sent to you. They will not help you as you did in fact receive a package full of crap. Your best recourse IMO is to write off your PayPal account and initiate a chargeback. PayPal's policy is quite clear (surprisingly) in that they will not help if the seller ships ANYTHING and can prove it.
edited for UBB...
[ edited by abingdoncomputers on Oct 18, 2000 03:10 PM ]
posted on October 18, 2000 05:06:42 PM new
I did receive another email from them, and I can, after 30 days, disupute the charge with Paypal. Now, if I di this on my own through the bank, I don't have to wait 30 days and go through all their crap to do it. I posted on my ebay fraud form that I was proceeding with a chargeback, that got the sellers attention and he has been a little nicer. He is still accusing me of switching his junk with stuff of my own, now he is saying that the pieces were marked and he knows for a fact I am not returning his pieces. I am not really sure what will happen now, I am sending the damaged pieces back to him, he can do whatever he wants with them, or say what he likes, but he knows that I do intend to proceed with the chargeback if he refuses to return my money for the broken pieces. This is getting quite ridiculous, if he had only admitted that he had sent me crap and been nicer things would have been different.
On a side note, I am none too happy with ebay. He has called my psychotic and several other names on the ebay fraud form, and used profane language towards me. I complained to ebay and they will do nothing about it because this is a private form and the "public" does not see it.
I am very disappointed in both ebay and paypal right now. I will tell you that if Paypal freezes my account that they will wish they had never heard my name, other than that I guess I will just give up on them. Heather
posted on October 18, 2000 05:59:59 PM newhcross, I would initiate a chargeback in this case since I think you have a much better chance of getting back your money from the bank that issued your charge card. Please remember that you only have a 60 day time frame to do this which starts from the day the charge was applied. I have copied the proper procedure to follow for initiating a chargeback from the following article: http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/crh/moneytips.htm
____________________________________________
Protect Your Credit and Debit/Check Card Rights
• Write to the creditor or card issuer within 60 days after the first bill containing the disputed charge is mailed to you. (Even if more than 60 days have passed since you were billed for the item, you still might be able to dispute the charge if you only recently found out about the problem.)
• Send your letter to the address provided on the bill; do not send the letter with your payment.
• Be specific. In your letter, give your name and account number, the date and amount of the charge disputed, and a complete explanation of why you are disputing the charge.
• To be sure your letter is received, and so you will have a record, you might wish to send it by certified mail, with a return receipt requested.
If you follow these requirements, the creditor or card issuer must acknowledge your letter in writing within 30 days after it is received and conduct an investigation within 90 days. While the bill is being disputed and investigated, you need not pay the amount in dispute. The creditor or card issuer may not take action to collect the disputed amount, including reporting the amount as delinquent, and may not close or restrict your account. If there was an error or you do not owe the amount, the creditor or card issuer must credit your account and remove any finance charges or late fees relating to the amount not owed. For any amount still owed, you have the right to an explanation and copies of documents proving you owe the money. If the bill is correct, you must be told in writing what you owe and why. You will owe the amount disputed plus any finance charges. You may ask for copies of relevant documents.
_____________________________________________
posted on October 18, 2000 06:13:52 PM new
Thanks Blanche, great info, I do know I am working in a time frame here, so once this man gets these back, if he refuses to cooperate I am just going to go for it. Don't even really care what Paypal does to me anymore. Heather
posted on October 19, 2000 10:47:15 AM new
If Paypal is holding your money, you are not obligated to ship. What you should do is email the customer and tell them that Paypal is holding their money hostage. They should email Paypal and let them know to either return the funds or a charge back will be made. A charge back costs the merchant (paypal in this case) about $15. If too many charge backs are made, the fee goes up and sometimes other charges apply. If Paypal starts to feel the hit from all the people they've hurt with their stupid policies, it might force them to behave more responsibly. http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
