posted on October 13, 2000 02:48:16 AM new
Hello Damon,
I have been one of the biggest cheerleaders of Paypal on this board. Now, I have a question for you. I was just defrauded out of $301 by a verified user with close to 300 feedback. I filed complaints with everyone I could find, including Paypal. I got a fine email this evening from Paul, and what he had to say is very sad. Apparently, since I received the package your insurance does not apply to me. For Paypal Insurance to pay the package must never have been received. Now, why don't you kindly explain to me how Paypal will let someone steal over $300 from someone and do nothing about it? The two boxes I received were total junk and not even what was advertised, tell me what good the insurance is? I assumed it was for fraud, I musta been wrong about that. Heather
[ edited by hcross on Oct 13, 2000 02:50 AM ]
posted on October 13, 2000 03:40:12 AM new
Heather, if PP fraud protection doesn't cover it, Ebay's insurance will cover $175 of it, and you still have all the other fraud avenues (e.g. mail fraud) to use to convince your seller to cough up a refund. Was the charge made against a balance in your PP account or from your credit card? Have you checked with your credit card company about a chargeback? Here's a site with some great suggestions for dealing with a situation like this:
posted on October 13, 2000 04:23:18 AM new
pickersangel: I did file an ebay fraud report, the FTC, Paypal, and a police report in the sellers hometown. I purchased a set of Pottery, it was close to 100 pieces and it was described as 14 pieces with damage, I received them and there were close to 40 pieces damaged and all the serving pieces were bad. I informed the seller and the only thing he would do was send me a UPS Insurance claim form. The pieces were not damaged in shipping as the chips were brown and yellow. There was also no broken pieces in the bubble wrap. I filed a fradu report with UPS and they are investigating him now for providing false information. He also made several false and very stupid statements on our ebay fraud claim and I have proven this.
You wanna know how crappy Paypal is? I spoke to customer service and they told me that if I initiated a chargeback that most likely my Paypal account would be in danger of cancellation. I am the one defrauded, but they will punish me, what a fine company they are running here. In answer to your question, I had $100 in my Paypal account and the rest came from my Debit Card and Credit Card. I only have chargeback recourse on about $30 of it. Chargebacks are not allowed on debit cards. I am not going to let this go, someone is going to fix this for me, come hell or high water. Heather
posted on October 13, 2000 04:29:25 AM new
OUCHIEEEE!!!! Your account will be in danger if you do a chargeback because the fraud insurance only covers failure to ship? DAMON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! C'mon. Heather has been one of the few standing up for your guys. It's getting harder and harder for any of us to do that these days........
Good job, Heather. Keep after the bozo, and let us know how this comes out!
posted on October 13, 2000 04:46:13 AM new
hcross... if payment had been made through yahoo paydirect there would be NOTHING they would do in this OR ANY OTHER case to help a buyer.
...which is why I, as a seller, like Yahoo paydirect: it's like cash.
posted on October 13, 2000 05:11:00 AM new
hcross:
While you and I have had very different opinions lately about PayPal, I'm truly sorry to hear that this has happened to you.
PayPal's verification scheme and the "buyer and seller protection" scheme are nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Why anyone would put any trust at all in ANY "protection" offered by PayPal at this point is honestly beyond my comprehension.
I hope you get this jerk of a seller and at the very least get him thrown off of eBay. Good luck.
posted on October 13, 2000 07:14:35 AM new
Heather... If you have any funds in your PayPal account I'd say to transfer them out immediately and make sure they are fully settled into your bank account. Then I'd initiate a chargeback with your card company on the grounds of fraud. When PayPal puts a freeze on your account let them know where they can stick it.
Your situation is unbelievable. PayPal is advertising that sending a box of rocks constitutes a properly completed transaction. Gotta' love 'em.
posted on October 13, 2000 07:44:27 AM new
I have a good customer that stopped using paypal. He paid a seller over $100 and got nothing and PP told him there was nothing they can do. Two months later, that seller's PP account is still active.
I know a seller with great ratings, a verified PP account and I know personally how honest she is, even losing money to make a customer happy when a problem occurred that wasnt even her fault. One of her customers charged back something she sent. PP froze her account without even an email. Even after she sent them delivery confirmation (which their own TOS says is acceptable) they told her it wasnt acceptable because there was no signature.
She did eventually "win." Of course by then other customers complained because they had paid her PP account, which was still accepting money even though she couldnt access it.
So I dont understand what the whole "protection" thing is about because it seems that only crooks are protected.
Paydirect does not allow charge backs. So for the sellers it's as good as cash. Billpoint does allow charge backs, so at least it's good for buyers. But PP's scheme is so crazy that it doesnt work properly for either honest buyers or honest sellers, just crooks. http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
posted on October 13, 2000 07:52:05 AM new
What's the mechanism that enables Paydirect to not allow chargebacks? What happens if I call my credit card company and say that a charge is in error?
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All rights reserved. All wrongs reversed.
posted on October 13, 2000 07:56:48 AM new
Amalgamated2000: It's the same mechanism that protects an issuer of money orders. If you buy a money order using your CC and use it to pay someone and that person cheats you, you cant charge back the money order. Paydirect is providing a service. It is done in two steps. In the first step, you fund your account with your credit card. In the second step you send money to someone else. If that third person cheats you, you cant charge it back and make PD foot the bill. They gave you the service you paid for. Paypal could have done the same thing. Payplace told me that they work the same way except that THEY will intervene in the event of fraud (non receipt of merchandise.) Exchangepath leaves the decision to the credit card company. http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
posted on October 13, 2000 08:45:31 AM new
But it's possible to dispute any credit card charge. If it were up to the merchant whether or not to allow chargebacks, I think all merchants would choose not to. I don't see how Yahoo could have the right to make this decision, regardless of how the transaction is structured. Maybe Yahoo always wins the disputes, but that's a different story.
And what if there is simply an error. I send $10, Yahoo charges me $100. Does the "no chargebacks" clause still apply? And if so, how could they possibly get away with this?
Paypal used to (and maybe still does, I don't know) freeze the accounts of anyone who initiated a chargeback. But they never claimed to have the power to disallow the chargeback itself.
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All rights reserved. All wrongs reversed.
posted on October 13, 2000 08:47:31 AM new
Not that I don't sympathize, but this is the exact situation in which most sellers do not want Paypal to become involved-condition of the item. There is no practical way for Paypal to mediate such a dispute. Even if all packages were routed through their office for inspection prior to delivery, condition can be too subjective. Sure it might be great as the buyer in this case, but what about the next time, when one of your buyers is dissappointed with a purchase (even if described accurately)?
posted on October 13, 2000 09:05:32 AM new
>>But it's possible to dispute any credit card charge. If it were up to the merchant whether or not to allow chargebacks, I think all merchants would choose not to. I don't see how Yahoo could have the right to make this decision, regardless of how the transaction is structured.<<
You're missing the point. It's possible to dispute a charge if your dispute is with the merchant who made the charge. If yahoo charges you card $100 and at your instruction sends it to someone else, they have done exactly what you asked. You have no dispute with Yahoo. Some credit cards do not allow you to use third party services at all and you automatically give up all charge back rights if you do so. As a merchant who accepted credit cards directly, when I received a charge back form from my bank, there was a place for me to fill out my defense. One of the boxes was "this charge was for a service performed." Paydirect can use this as defense and Paypal can do the same, if they chose to.
>>And what if there is simply an error. I send $10, Yahoo charges me $100. Does the "no chargebacks" clause still apply? <<
No, here your dispute is with the merchant directly (Yahoo) and you can dispute it.
>>Paypal used to (and maybe still does, I don't know) freeze the accounts of anyone who initiated a chargeback. But they never claimed to have the power to disallow the chargeback itself.<<
Yes, they did. When PP first started it was with the understanding that charge backs were not allowed. It was a major deal, with big headlines (in the Internet publications) the day they changed this policy. I think this was Paypal's first mistake and they have made many more since.
posted on October 13, 2000 09:12:52 AM new
>>this is the exact situation in which most sellers do not want Paypal to become involved-condition of the item. There is no practical way for Paypal to mediate such a dispute.<<
I agree that PP can not mediate disputes. However, since PP did choose to get into the "verification" business, they should also track in-house if complaints have been made against sellers. The seller should get at least an email warning stating that a complaint has been made and on the third complaint, his PP account should be terminated. Bidpay checks out sellers before sending them payment and if a seller doesnt check out, Bidpay won't pay them.
Sometimes someone will try to get away with something if they think it's easy but they'll think twice if there's a consequence. A while ago a buyer accidentally paid a seller $1013 instead of 10.13 through PP. PP refused to get involved, claiming this was a buyer-seller dispute. Personally, I thought that was stupid. I didnt think that PP should have frozen the seller's account, but they should have at least emailed and asked for some explanation of the charge. If the seller realized that an inquiry was being made, he probably would have sent back the overpayment. By doing nothing, PP let the seller believe he could get away with it. So the buyer did a charge back and I never heard the end of the story. My advice to PP is: Wake up! If you're going to pretend to be in the verification business, at least pretend you're actually going to do something besides help yourself to the most easily accessible bank account. http://www.ygoodman.com [email protected]
posted on October 13, 2000 09:13:32 AM new
Sorry to hear about your bad fortune Heather.
In essence, if someone were to ship an empty box, PayPal would be freed of any responsibility tward the buyer. As I said before, PayPal's BUYER and SELLER fraud protection is a total joke! A false sense of security....
posted on October 13, 2000 09:22:29 AM new
Chargebacks ARE allowed with debit cards. Maybe not with Paypal but with your bank. When I had my problem with TakeToAuction, I called my bank, the money was immediately refunded. I took picture of what I got vs what the auction picture showed and that was that.
Not my name on ebay.
posted on October 13, 2000 10:25:29 AM new
Well, I see that he has had all day to respond and has not. Several months ago ebay charged my debit card for my ebay bill twice, it ended up being close to $500, I tried to stop it, but my bank said the funds are guaranteed and cannot be reversed, I will call them again today and check.
You know, this is so unfair. I was worried about a 0 feedback seller who I was sending $300 and it turns out that the seller who had been around for awhile is the one who defrauded me. Is there anyone here who would be willing to review the fraud complaint on ebay and let me know your thoughts and what I should do next? The man is turning out to be a total fruitcake. Heather
posted on October 13, 2000 10:48:04 AM new
I can't verify this as an exact quote, but the famed guitarist Segovia once said that he never insured his guitars: "Who will insure me against the insurance companies?"
posted on October 13, 2000 10:48:46 AM new
HI hcross,
Unfortunately, the other posters are correct. The program does not cover the condition of the item or merchandise received as not is.
The program is to guarantee the transaction itself against fraudulent funds.
I know that you are one of our biggest supporters and I am wholly appreciative of that.
You are more than welcome to forward the information to me at [email protected] and I will take a look at it, but I have a feeling that there is not much I can do.
posted on October 13, 2000 11:27:40 AM new
Well, that is really interesting information Damon. Let me get this straight, a user is allowed to defraud another user out of $300 and you will do nothing? Yet, you will punish me for trying to recover MY money? I can hardly believe this. I have proof, lots of proof, showing how this seller has repeatedly lied and then he stole from me, and you will do nothing? I don't think so, if you think I am going to take this, you have another thing coming. Heather
edited to add: I have played by Paypal rules, I signed up for a business account back in July, I have made a fool out of myself on these board defending Paypal and this is the thanks I get? From what I can tell, the good, decent people are punished and the cheaters of this world are rewarded. The other poster was right, he could have sent me a box of rocks and you would not care anymore about that than you do this.
[ edited by hcross on Oct 13, 2000 11:31 AM ]
posted on October 13, 2000 11:30:57 AM new
Maybe Paypal can team up with the post office or a MailBoxes Etc-type service. For a fee, a trained employee will compare the merchandise against the official EBAY EOA (containing the auction description), determine some level of quality (still subjective, but at least not a box of rocks), package it according to specifications, and provide all parties a certification. Then if a complaint is made the onus is on Paypal. I am not being sarcastic. Would buyers be willing to pay for such a service?
posted on October 13, 2000 11:49:48 AM new
Hcross...seriously, how can paypal determine that the items were not as advertised? You say they arrived with more damage than stated in the auction...the seller says that is not the way they were sent.
So in order to prove your right, what do you do? Send paypal pictures of the damaged items? How does paypal know you aren't sending pictures of other pieces of this set you already owned that were damaged? You send the damaged pieces to paypal for inspection? Again, how does paypal know you aren't substituting damaged pieces you already owned for the undamaged ones the seller sent you?
How does paypal know for sure you're not the one who is pulling the scam and the seller isn't the real victim in this case?
It is unrealistic to expect paypal to take your side in an issue like this...they don't see the merchandise before it is sent nor are they there when you open the package. There is no way they can judge who is right or wrong.
posted on October 13, 2000 12:04:57 PM newBut it's possible to dispute any credit card charge.
Yes it is.
PayPal would like to deceive or intimidate to prevent you from taking such action, but it is possible to dispute any charge which did not involve the use of the physical credit card. That's the big gun, "unauthorized". There is no possible defense by the charging merchant.
There's a lesser gun, with various wording from different credit card companies, but it boils down to "I did buy something, but what I paid for did not arrive, although maybe somethign else arrived".
Call the credit card company. Tell them you intend to initiate a dispute, and you'd like them to send you the written form. Then initiate the dispute.
Hopefully you paid for this item using a credit card. If you paid from existing funds in your PayPal account, we can all but learn from such an error, and thousands of people will learn to never keep a single cent in their PayPal accounts.
posted on October 13, 2000 02:16:28 PM new
Amy, Because I am honest, that is why. Do you really think that I would risk a 3 year ebay relationship over this? I have spent $2000 on ebay in the last 6 weeks. If I was a "buyer gone bad" why would I do this now? Why has no other seller accused me of switching items? Which is what he is now claiming. I live in Texas, I had been waiting on this package for over a week. Checked the tracking on Tuesday afternoon and saw that it would be coming that day. I was out of town so I went home and waited for the UPS man, when I got the boxes I came back to Oklahoma and opened the boxes here. We were having a family reunion and MANY people sat there and watched me open the boxes and unwrap the pieces. They also saw the broken pile getting bigger and bigger. i have contacted everyone and they are all making statements and having them notarized.
I also contacted the Police Department in this man's hometown and filed a complaint. The officer did not even speak to this man, but he is claiming the officer made all kinds of false statements about me and spoke directly with him. He put all this on my fraud form. I called the officer back and let him know that I would fax him a copy of the statements made by this man on the fraud form, but he just wanted them read to him. He said this seller flat out lied and he never even spoke with him. The Officer told me that he would provide anything I needed to show how this individual has lied. The fraud form is getting quite long, but I will post some of the highlights when I get back home.
I contacted my bank and showed them everything I had, they said the burden of proof had been met by me, I am to send the seller a certified letter, it does not matter if he refuses it or not, to prove that I tried to contact him to work this out. Two weeks from today they are doing a chargeback to Paypal for $120,the debit card part. I am almost positive that I am going to win the case with ebay insurance, so I will be out only $6.00 on this deal. If Paypal would get him I would not do the chargeback, but I can see that is not going to happen. Heather
posted on October 13, 2000 04:03:13 PM new
Frankly what I truly can't understand, after reading far too many PayPal threads over the last couple of months, is why anyone (with even half a brain) is still using or accepting PayPal.
DAMON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! C'mon. Heather has been one of the few standing up for your guys. It's getting harder and harder for any of us to do that these days........