Think about it. As a buyer do you think you'll be charged a fee? Do you really expect PayPal to charge both the buyer and seller if they were both business?
Was that a serious concern? I sure hope it wasn't.
posted on September 19, 2000 12:19:11 PM
It's not a concern until PayPal decides to start charging buyers.
The point is, how can any of us be labeled cheaters, dishonest, etc. when the rules haven't even been written and when we'd been led to believe we didn't have to upgrade unless we wanted the "business" features?
We need to separate history from spin and stop pointing fingers at people who just believed what we'd been told.
Understand this. To some of us it does not matter if we are BUSINESSES or not. We signed up under a differnet set of rules. PayPal changed the rules and will keep doing so when ever the spirit moves them.
My biggest beef with them is they won't be strait with us. PayPal reps, including Damon have told us that they are only passing on credit card charges at cost. This is bull or they would not be charging us for other types of transactions while actively promoting those other types of transactions.
Promises they made from the start to sellers have been broken. This would be ok if they didn't try to justify it with "we said we were free for person to person transactions". They said they were free to sellers, never making a distiction between businesses and non-businesses.
Now, honestly, if I sold you on a service saying one thing and they changed the rules and said to you "I didn't say that!" would you not be upset about it?
The people at PayPal have become arrogant and need to be taken down a notch or two. Actively promoting the competition is the best way to do it.
posted on September 19, 2000 01:40:40 PM
Someone asked about any unauthorized withdrawals from accounts--the only thing close that I've heard was several days ago, when a poster claimed that PP had debited her "verification" account for a transaction, rather than using the debit card that she had listed (which was linked to a different bank account than the one given for verification). Last I knew, PPD was checking into this. Anyone know what the result was?
posted on September 19, 2000 01:52:32 PM
feistyone: As I said in another thread, if Paypal had gone under from all these free transactions can you imagine what this place would have looked like? Businesses evolve and change, you are being unrealistic to expect something to always stay the same. If the tiny bit of fees they charge me help to keep them in business, then I am all for it. What fees they are getting is nothing compared to what I would have saved if I had a merchant account and used Billpoint. Also the I am in the clear for a hell of a long time because of the bonuses and all the transactions that I had before I upgraded in June.
You can continue with your own personal little crusade, just as the others can, but in the end are you really hurting Paypal? I think not. Most people that I have spoke to feel the same as I do. I think it all boils down to people expecting a free ride. Just my opinion. Heather
posted on September 19, 2000 02:00:13 PMJust to interject a little humor and really useful information....
These cut and paste phrases can be so helpful
in real life...ie for your husband, child, work etc.
the concerns are being worked on.
I am truly sorry you feel that way.
not all issues that I look at can be answered.
I am still getting clarification on this.
I have passed this information along.
I cannot respond to every inquiry if I don't have the answer to it, therby requiring clarification.
That is being looked at.
I think the negative side of not having the exact answer is better than not giving the correct answer or making sure that the correct concern is addressed.
I am not stating this to be negative but rather to inform.
I am not aware of your issue.
I am not sure when or if that will be instituted.
I will continue to push forward for you
Again, this is not over and these concerns will be brought forward.
Item 3 should be ready tomorrow.
Please read what I have said again.
Now, we can get back on topic which is security concerns
That is quite amusing (and I am not being sarcastic) ,but the information I supplied already answered the question.It also underlies the current position I am in, which is not one I want to be in.
In the event that an account was accessed in an unauthorized manner, the account is insured to $100,000. This information can be found on the web site and it is underwritten by the Traveler's.
This only stresses the importance of going directly to the x.com site when logging in or clicking on any link. If it does not read X.com, do not attempt to enter it, even if the site looks like ours.
These are attempts to harvest passwords and fraudsters focus on two things to get victims:
1. greed
2. uncertainty or lack of knowledge
Consumers can protect themselves by:
1. Checking their account history if someone claims to send them money.
2. Logging in only to x.com. No other site, regardless of appearance is ours. If you type in paypal.com, it will redirect to x.com.
3. Never giving their password to someone else.
posted on September 19, 2000 02:12:27 PM
There is no more security problems with Paypal than there is with your regular checking account, going to a restraunt and using your credit card etc. If you are so worried about this, you better go hide in a hole with your checkbook and credit cards. READ MY LIPS, there is no more danger here than there is with any transactions in real life. Heather
posted on September 19, 2000 02:27:30 PM"But if you accept this, then you cannot reasonably spend the day running around shouting "The sky is falling!", and where is the fun in that?"
There is some entertainment factor in that I believe. I have a sister-in-law that spent a fortune getting ready for the Y2K bug. Her and her husband buried food, guns, and gasoline all over their property out in the woods. When Jan 1st 12:01am rolled around they weren't at a party, they were in the country in their cabin with candles going, waiting for the electricity to stop at 12:00. I do believe they enjoyed the preparations, and the smug attitude of "you just wait and see" when I'd brushed off their warnings to buy cases of ammo and get my guns loaded.
I'll recommend to someone that banking on the internet is very easy and the first words out of their mouths is 'hacked'. I stop the dialog there. The fears of online finance fraud are such that news services never pass up a story on them, even if the victims were merely inconvenienced at best.
posted on September 19, 2000 03:12:18 PM
hcross, for once I agree with you. Listen, its simple...really. If you like Paypal use it. If you don't, close your account. It doesn't hurt me one bit if Paypal lives for another day or not & its not my business if you have a Paypal account or not.
These whiners are the same people that continously
1. Slam eBay for the banners & whine how eBay has forgotten the guy who put 5 auctions a week.
2. Tell sellers who don't sell to International customers that they are dumb (even tho' its none of their business)
3. Told eBay to stop reserve auctions by adding fees because they don't like those 1 cent auction & when eBay did add fees, they scream bloody murder
And someone list all those Billpoint worshippers now who about a month ago slammed Billpoint for being a monopolistic company...what was the line...'eBay already has 90% of the online auction, now they want to take over online sales too with their pathetic attempt to bribe buyers with their $1 rebate..sounds like another Microsoft to me'.
Doesn't bother me if you use Billpoint. Oh yeah how did Paypal shaft you. Gave you free $5 which you didn't mind taking & spending it on yourself (yeah I bet a fair portion of that when to charity...yeah right).
Hey I am no cheerleader, in fact I just opened a Yahoo Direct account...but you don't see me b*tch***. Do something by closing your account & when Paypal goes under, you can pat yourself & say, 'Yup us little folks just whooped an ********)
posted on September 19, 2000 03:20:48 PM
comic123: It really is scary that we are agreeing isn't it? I have been telling them since all this started to quit griping and close their accounts if they did not like it.
uaru: Yes, there is entertainment factor here, how many threads have been opened with the latest proclamation of doom and gloom? First they were holding your money hostage unless you upgraded, and now your account is in danger of being hacked at anytime. This does not count all the inbetween threads. I remember most of these people saying Billpoint sucks, and Paypal forever. I am very anxious to see what comes up next. Heather
posted on September 19, 2000 03:21:37 PM
I use Zone Alarm on my computer, so everytime I go to log into Paypal, it automatically dings in that someone has tried to access my password while I am entering it. I am not sure it is downloadable for Mac users, but on windows it sure is. Go to:http://www.zonealarm.com and find out more about this, it's great!
posted on September 19, 2000 03:46:59 PMpickersangel --
Regarding the unauthorized withdrawal incident...that was me. I haven't heard a word from PPD or Paypal customer service about the matter. Not an explanation for why they did it as an "auto-debit," nor any explanation for why my debit card is suddenly missing from my payment options. I had used my debit card for previous transactions, before any of this happened.
The fact that Paypal did an auto debit is especially *odd* considering the fact that an auto-debit is normally set up for payments you plan to make on a monthly basis, like a utility bill, etc. According to my bank, they can't know if Paypal will make this withdrawal again, at the same time, next month. They can only tell me after it happens. So I am faced with closing my checking account, as a way to stop them from doing this again. Nice, huh?
IOW, not only did they make a withdrawal, without authorization, from the verification account, but they used an unusual method to do it.
And of course, they haven't made any attempts to explain why they did this.
posted on September 19, 2000 03:56:28 PM
The concern initially posed by Ploughman was that someone could empty your CHECKING account (with your bank) and buy all kinds of stuff via PayPal. Gee whiz, folks, if you're talking about your checking account, you have to remember that banks are regulated. If you reported unauthorized withdrawals from your checking account, your bank would be obligated to treat it as a stolen check or any other unauthorized withdrawal. It would be fraud and your bank would have to go after the cashing bank or agency (in this case, PayPal, I'd imagine) to recover the money.
posted on September 19, 2000 03:57:18 PM
Hi Julesy,
In the event that I pass an item off, I expect it to be taken care of. I just sent you an email asking for the transaction information as well so that I can have it at my fingertips.
posted on September 19, 2000 03:59:20 PM
You people saying that some of these posts are paranoid probably haven't been credit-card fraud victims, I'm guessing. I was a victim twice; in the worst case, someone stole a renewal card from my mailbox and charged up $1,500 in one day. Made me pay attention to the $50 liability cap (which was waived) VERY quickly.
While having the $100,000 insurance is far better than nothing, it's nowhere near as good as the protections afforded to credit cards. In the example above, I would have had to cover the $1,500 and file a claim which the insurer could delay or deny or put extra hurdles against. It's like dealing with HMOs after having to go to the emergency room.
I think an extra security level on bank debits would help greatly. While the chances of problems are low, PayPal has made the downside risk higher, too. You could have 100 plungers in your yard and only one might blow up your house, but would you push down on one for $200? PayPal may have forced its users into a much different risk/reward situation than they signed up for.
posted on September 19, 2000 04:16:16 PMSo what happens if someone hacks into your account and pays out of your bank account?!? I don't think in that situation you're covered either by credit or debit-card legal protections like the $50 liability cap. I seem to recall reading that under that scenario, your losses are potentially unlimited.
By federal law, you have the right to the return of money extracted from your checking account via a forged withdrawal.
This right is not limited to $100,000, nor is it affected by PayPal's opinion as to whether or not the withdrawal was forged.
It is limited by time. You must act quickly upon receiving your statement which shows the forged withdrawal.
If it happens, don't call PayPal first, call your bank. If you're concerned, ask your bank before this happens.
There is a key difference between unauthorized CC charge reversal and check forgery return. With a CC, most credit card companies are generous to the buyer; the merchant gets stuck with no recourse. With a check forgery however, the loser is likely to be a colleague bank, and maybe even a bank owned by the same company. Thus, the bank has more motivation to place barriers in the path of someon who would claim forgery.
posted on September 19, 2000 04:17:48 PM"in the worst case, someone stole a renewal card from my mailbox and charged up $1,500 in one day"
That must have been a long time ago, I can't remember how long its been since I've gotten a credit card I didn't have to activate before it could be used. Most require you call from your home phone.
>>>"Most people that I have spoke to feel the same as I do. I think it all boils down to people expecting a free ride."<<<
I don't want to insult you by telling you that you TOTALLY missed my point but how else can I say it. I'm not expecting a free ride. I'm expecting businesses to either live up to their promises or at least be honest about it. Let me put it this way, when Paydirect starts charging for their services I will not complain because I knew what I was getting into when I signed up.
Secondly, I belive that you are wrong that most people think like you. Let me referr you to AW's own reader's poll:
posted on September 19, 2000 06:00:53 PM
feistyone: My whole point is this, Paypal pretty much warned people back in June that if you were conducting business through Paypal that you needed to upgrade. If people had upgraded, as they should have, then all of this would not have had to happen. I think you are the one who is missing something, businesses change, what worked 6 months ago, might not be working today. Paypal thought they could make it on the float, they could not and started warning people back in June to upgrade. If you did not, that is your problem. Sorry, I disagree, this is all about having a free ride.
It is obvious you and I will not ever agree on this, so why don't we agree to disagree? Heather
As for the readers poll, there is no indication how many people participated, nor is there a margin for error like in most polls. I did not say most people agree with me, I said most people I talked to agree with me, there is a big difference.
[ edited by hcross on Sep 19, 2000 06:03 PM ]
posted on September 19, 2000 07:17:04 PMhcross, As a seller who registered with billpoint upon its inception and registered with ccnow even before then, I take great offense at your declaration that I am disgusted with paypal merely because I miss my "free ride."
I assure you, it's not the "free" part of that ride that concerns me.
When I signed on with the services I mentioned, plus several others that I have since joined, not one of them required blanket authorization to access my checking account. Most (if not all) of these services allow chargebacks.
Unless and until someone can provide an answer to that question that contains even the slightest bit of logic ("we promise never to access your account without your permission" doesn't qualify), then I will continue to steer my buyers to billpoint etal.
posted on September 19, 2000 08:11:44 PM
A "free ride" has nothing to do with this. I'd gladly pay the fee --and HAD planned to open a PayPal business acount for my web site as soon as the shopping cart feature was launched -- if I felt I could trust PayPal. But I DON'T trust it at this point.
PayPal made an agreement, then broke it... told us we didn't have to upgrade, then basically called us dishonest when we took them at their word. It's all spin! Blame it on the customers.
I'm paying fees now for the privilege of taking credit cards. But I'm also getting a well thought-out, thorough agreement that fully spells out what's expected of both sides. I'm comfortable with that. It's too bad PayPal can't provide the same service. It's fees are four-tenths of one percent lower than a merchant account. I'll bet it's not long before they're equal to a merchant account.
That four-tenths of a point is a small price to pay for knowing what I'm getting into and for dealing with a company that has to answer for its actions. See, no free ride. I don't expect one.
