posted on December 18, 2001 11:34:40 AM new
well, i am another victim of paypal's chargeback tactics.......here is my story.......i am a seller that lives in canada.........i sell a lot of product on ebay.........i joined paypal 14 months ago.........i am a verified member 141 ....then a few days ago paypal sent me an email stating that a transaction that took place on May 31 2001 was a bad transaction because the buyer of that transaction used a credit card in a fraudulent manner......i was the seller of that transaction........i wrote back to them giving all the info they required but i could not give a tracking number because here in canada we do not use tracking numbers from our post office because the canadian post office does not have tracking numbers........i have a high feedback on ebay close to 700 feedbacks......i also wrote paypal and they said they would get back to me.......i even called paypal on the phone and the operater keep telling me that i needed a tracking number.........i told the operater about my international status and we do not have a tracking number....i then proceeded to mention to the operater that the transaction was not of a unhappy buyer but a buyer using a fraudulent credit card and why is the tracking number a issue..........she in turn had no answer.........i then recieved the decision from paypal which i forward to you......they say ........................
In accordance with PayPal's Seller Protection Policy, the amount of
the following transaction involving unauthorized funds has been debited from your PayPal account:
A chargeback settlement fee in the amount of $10.00 has also
been assessed to your account.
The transaction was reversed because of the following:
- You were unable to provide tracking information.
- Shipment was made internationally.
If this reversal has caused your account to have a negative balance,
you will need to reimburse PayPal for the Chargeback. You may add
funds to your PayPal account or send a check to the following address:
PayPal - Accounting Dept.
PO Box 45950
Omaha, NE 68145-0950
Please note that this withholding is in accordance with our
Terms of Use, Section VII, Paragraph 3.
In the future, you can protect yourself against fraudulent buyers by
following the conditions of our Seller Protection Policy.
For full details, please visit our Terms of Service at:
so you see my concern.........how can they bring up a transaction that is over 6 months old and charge me...in canada there is a 6 month time limit on chargebacks....what is the time limit in the states.......in paypal TOC i could not find a time limit on chargebacks..........also suppose this happens again........there is no protection.....and they penalized me because i am a international seller..........and i had no chance for any kind of defense.............i asked them for records of this case like the credit card company that was used....and info on time limit on chargebacks....still no answer......i guess bottom line is if you handle a lot of inventory then one takes a huge risk dealing with credit card transactions and using institutions like paypal......especially if you are a international seller......so to all international sellers....beware.....if you sell a huge inventory on the internet and use paypal as a format for credit card transactions.....you will be walking on thin ice..............you make the decision......
posted on December 18, 2001 12:13:32 PM new
follow up on this story.......as soon as i was informed about this buyer that used a fraudulent credit card i at once contacted ebay officials to inform them of the situation......ebay in turn did a major investigation into this person using the fraudulent credit card and shut them down......now....how many innocent sellers got stung by this one individual .....and why is paypal not communacating with places like ebay with this info........and why are all these creditcard institutions not talking to each other to share info so as to prevent all these frauds........if this is business then it sucks.......communacation is a important and mature way of making business flow .....saving the taxpayer from cleaning up messes later on......i don't know but it makes one wonder how business is done......and when the public starts to voice their opinions and you ignore them....then are you not beening fraudulent yourself.........
Chargebacks can occur months down the road because the credit card company reports the chargeback to us (there is processing time involved).
Buyers typically have 60 days to file a chargeback with the credit card company (from the date of the original transaction).The credit card company then processes the chargeback, which then gets the information back to us.
Our Seller Protection Policy does not extend to international transactions.
Chargeback liability is present in all other payment services (merchant account,etc) that I have reviewed.
Here is the Seller Protection Policy to advise on why the chargeback has been accepted, as well as why liability is present.
Seller Protection Policy
General. PayPal agrees to indemnify sellers of physical goods from chargeback liability resulting from a buyer's unauthorized use of a credit card and/or false claims of non-shipment of goods. This protection applies to up to $5,000 per year of payments received by the seller through PayPal if the following conditions are met:
The seller has a Verified Business or Verified Premier Account (U.S.). Note: While International sellers may have a status of International - Verified, they do not qualify for and are not protected by the Seller Protection Policy and therefore may be responsible for any reversals made due to fraudulent funds.
The seller ships to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This documentation must show that you shipped to the Confirmed Address. (Most U.S. carrier companies offer this service, including the U.S. Postal Service.) For transactions $500 or more in value, the seller also needs to provide an online proof-of-receipt in the form of a signature from the buyer. Because comparable proof-of-shipment is not currently available for electronically-delivered items, we are currently unable to offer Seller Protection for digital goods and other electronically-delivered items.
The seller accepted a single payment from only one PayPal account for the purchase. (Multiple payments from different accounts for a single item are a fraud indicator. Sellers should not accept such payments.)
The seller ships to a domestic (U.S.) buyer at a U.S. address.
The seller cooperates in resolving disputes by responding in the following time periods: When a complaint occurs, the seller must provide complete information within 7 days of a request from PayPal. However, if PayPal is required by the credit card association to respond immediately to resolve a chargeback, sellers must provide the information within 3 days. PayPal will indicate the response time required in the e-mail message sent to the seller.
If you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy. When you receive funds through PayPal, if the sender's transaction is reversed for any reason and you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy for that transaction, you will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction plus any fees imposed on PayPal as a result of the reversal. You agree to reimburse PayPal from either your PayPal account or by other means as described in Section IV.2 under "Receipt of Payments."
Confirmed Addresses. PayPal prompts buyers to provide sellers with a Confirmed Address when making a purchase. A Confirmed Address is either an address at which a User receives his or her credit card statements, and is checked by PayPal with the User's credit card issuer, or an address which PayPal has confirmed through an Alternate Address Confirmation process, which includes the verification of other official documents. Shipping to this address minimizes the risk of being paid by a fraudulent buyer. If a buyer does not provide a Confirmed Address, the seller must either refuse the payment and ask that the buyer provide a Confirmed Address, or accept the chargeback risk in shipping the item outside of this Seller Protection Policy. Tools for Premier and Business Accounts to automatically refuse to accept payments where the buyer chooses not to share his Confirmed Address can be found on the "Preferences" page of the "Profile" subtab of the "My Account" tab.
posted on December 18, 2001 02:19:38 PM new
In this case, PayPal is right... their seller protection policy states it does not apply to transactions outside the U.S. While the amount of time it took for the chargeback to go though is very mysterious, assuming it actually was a chargeback you wouldn't be covered by PayPal's protection policy. I don't agree with the policy either, but that is why I don't use PayPal (to sell). If you use it and want to be protected you have to abide by the conditions in the policy.
posted on December 18, 2001 07:56:13 PM new
well damon you made your point.....even though you still did not answer some questions i asked.....is there a time limit for chargebacks in the U.S.....and now knowing that INTERNATIONAL PAYPAL SELLERS ARE NOT PROTECTED BY PAYPAL ON CHARGEBACKS WHATSOEVER , AND ARE TREATED VERY DIFFERENTLY COMPARED TO U.S.PAYPAL USERS.....so why would any intelligent international seller choose paypal, when knowing there is no protection and no failsafe system for ALL INTERNATIONAL SELLERS.......your better off establishing your own credit card system rather than paying service fees to a credit card service with no protection whatsoever .......and the other question...does paypal share information with others companies such as billpoint...c2it...bidpay....and other credit card and money order transaction houses... on fraud cards and those people that are commintting the fraud of these cards.......so that we the user of your service can avoid being strapped with harsh penalties......leads me to say happy trails to you......and many many other international sellers and buyers i know personally, will be pulling up stakes also, and bidding you adieu..........<br />
[ edited by skylite on Dec 18, 2001 08:45 PM ]
posted on December 18, 2001 08:24:52 PM new
Hi skylite,
Chargeback liability is explained in our terms of use, to which you (as well as the company) are bound to comply with. I pointed out the information simply to advise other users that we are acting per our terms of use.
Credit card companies generally allow 60 days for a chargeback filing, but this is up to the issuer.
No, we do not share our data with other services re: chargebacks.
Chargebacks are a legitimate concern, but they are relatively rare. PayPal has no say in the issuance of a chargeback by the credit card companies, but we do process the chargeback.
You would find that chargeback liability is present in all payment services (to the best of my knowledge), as well as with all merchant accounts that I am aware of.It is a potential risk when accepting credit card payments, but many find the benefits outweigh the risks.
posted on December 18, 2001 10:21:04 PM new
nicely said damon......but when you say benefits outweigh the risks....easy said...when the risks are not yours......and just out of curosity ...how much do you sell using paypal.....
posted on December 19, 2001 05:54:23 AM new
You might try using Bidpay in the future. It costs $5 for up to $100 and the cost is paid by the bidder. Once they send the second confirmation letter, you are guaranteed to get your money. They verify the info very carefully up front. I had a bidder use a stolen credit card and Bidpay denied the money order request so I did not loose my item or any money. They have no way to charge anything back to you either. Once they accept the payment, you are home free.
posted on December 19, 2001 05:55:31 AM new
You might try using Bidpay in the future. It costs $5 for up to $100 and the cost is paid by the bidder. Once they send the second confirmation letter, you are guaranteed to get your money. They verify the info very carefully up front. I had a bidder use a stolen credit card and Bidpay denied the money order request so I did not loose my item or any money. They have no way to charge anything back to you either. Once they accept the payment, you are home free.
