posted on December 17, 2000 09:55:07 PM new
A friend and business associate was over today for dinner and the talk turned to politics and religion as it always does around here. My friend is a naturalized American citizen and a staunch Republican. He states that he is a republican because Clinton told a lie to the American people and was immoral. Realize, that this friend is intelligent and Oxford educated . . . but like most Americans, has no real sense of what American political parties are all about.
The political talk turned to Capital Punishment versus the cruelty of locking someone away for 60 years. I pointed out that if the causes of these social ills could be taken away, then there would really be no need for prisons or Capital Punishment as it is used right now. I mentioned that crime arises from the disenfranchised: poverty, ignorance, and the unempowered. That if only everyone had complete and equal access to the courts and to justice to solve their differences, that would empower many to simply not use crime and violence as an alternative. I then told him that if the ignorant were educated, then they'd be empowered to earn good incomes, then the desperation to steal and commit violent crimes would diminish. And if instead of building new prisons we built more modern-care mental hospitals where many could get treatment before they commit crimes, then surely this would reduce crime. And for those that do commit crimes, they too need access to mental health as well to help keep them from re-offending. This, I told him, was what the Democratic Party was all about.
It was when I explained that the Republicans believe that social ills are best solved with the Rule of Might. That those who are stronger and more capable should have everything and that the less fortunate are left to their own devices. It is Evolution in Action: Kill or be Killed, Eat or Be Eaten -- the Survival of the Fittest. And when those who have everything deny all alternatives to those who have nothing, the nothing are left only with despair and violence -- then that's what prisons and electric chairs are all about.
I do not think that I turned him from being a Republican, but certainly, I stopped him from criticizing Democrats for only offering a helping hand.
posted on December 18, 2000 12:45:20 AM new
I am sure if he was robbed and shot on the way home he at least felt sorry for the fellow who had to do that after your lesson.
posted on December 18, 2000 06:53:13 AM new
Actually James that should have read.
Crimes that are typically punished arises from the disenfranchised: poverty, ignorance, and the unempowered.
The ones that go unpunished are normally committed by Republicans.
election fraud, securities fraud, Wire fraud, insurance fraud, you get the general gist. What gets me is their position on gun control legislation its obvious they aren't using those guns for crimes.
posted on December 18, 2000 07:41:56 AM new
I tip my hat, donny.
Whatever anyone thinks may be the cause of crime is correct to a degree.
I once had to write a paper on the Causality of Crime in Urban America. A topic almost too broad for a paper, I think. I took a more narrow focus in my approach to the project and tried simply to compile and analyze the prevailing views on the causes and effects.
After extensive searching through a huge and multi-disciplinary array of pertinent books (the internet being generaly unavailable at the time), it became apparent that the variety of opinion was overwhelming. The sheer weight of all those opinions became the theme of my research.
In a rather long paper (typed, double spaced, footnoted, etc.) I listed all I could find. I concluded with the statement I first made on this subject ( not the one about donny!).
There is more than one right answer to the question of what causes crime. I have some personal favorites, but I'm not at all covinced of my personal certitude on this
subject.
posted on December 18, 2000 07:53:55 AM new
Your apparent knowledge and your views regarding what causes crime and a person to be a criminal, all the various causes of crime and the solution, is too limited, too narrow, too emotional, and too simplistic.
The causes, the reasons, and the variables involved are many. Many are complicated and some are impossible to eliminate. Some people are (just) natural born predators.
In certain circumstances of provocation or crisis, many normal law-abiding people, even you, have the capacity to commit a crime, even a violent crime.
posted on December 18, 2000 08:07:46 AM new
sgtmike - As usual well said and right on target.
xardon - Like most issues that dominate the American Scene crime is one of those too vast to explain. I wouldn't have minded reading that paper. Funny how professors pick the broadest topics for papers. Sounds like you produced some A+ work.
posted on December 18, 2000 12:17:05 PM newSgtMike and the rest who agree with him, please think over what I am about to tell you.
Poverty, violence, crime - all are on vicious cycles. The boy who witnesses his father beating his mother will end up beating his wife in front of his son and so on. Isn't there a way to stop the cycle? Did not God give us the brains and intelligence to figure out a way? Do we not even have a moral necessity to even try?
Since the Renascence there have been many who have decided that society and its ills are not unsolvable. You are aware of one of the biggest of those remedies: a change in type of government from Might Is Right Monarchies to self-governing Democratic bodies such as our (a Democratic Republic by definition). You may not be aware of other far-seeing lines of thought about the human condition. For instance, it was long believed that crime is a matter of genetics: that one passed onto their children the propensity to either commit crimes or to obey the law, depending upon you and your progenitors. This sort of thinking held on until the turn of this century in this country.
The problem with the Genetics theory is that it leads to despair, and in 1907 in the state of Indiana, it lead to forced castration for mental patients and others (BTW: this is where Heinrich Himmler of the SS got the idea it turns out). It also leaves out hope for an eventual solution, short of sterilization for four-fifths of the population.
So, thinkers began to realize that environment and experiences often played crucial factors: that those who are in poverty are not entrenched in poverty because of genes (which used to be the common thought in The Good Old Days), but given education, opportunity, and the right incentives, the impoverished could climb out of their hopeless condition and become self-sustaining members of society. Time and time again, this has proved to be the case.
Yet, it also turned out that those who did hoard all of the resources and the power were reluctant to offer education for the masses, give opportunities for the less fortunate to improve themselves and their status in life, and took every step possible to discourage the possibility that someone else could climb up out of the mud as well. This is the Republican Party of today.
You detractors try to pick apart these things with sound bites. I never stated that we can cure all of society's ills, but that we ought to try. Will we always need prisons? Of course! There will always be those who are disenfranchised no matter what efforts that we use to help society out. But if we can stop one father from beating the mother of a small child and that child stops the cycle of abuse, then we have at least tried.
Sorry, but the "throw them all in prison" theory of republicans costs MORE dollars than does mental health care, education, and offering social services to the less-fortunate. So much for the theory that Republicans are for financial responsibility.
posted on December 18, 2000 12:31:44 PM new
That's all true, but only to an extent. For every ghetto kid who "never had a chance" and resorts to violent crime, there is a Daphne Abdela, very rich white kid, who sliced up a man in Central Park just to see him die. Does this mean she was "born under a bad sign"? It just might. Rape -- how 'bout horny drunken frat boy rape which occurs? There are all kinds of causes for crime, poverty being one for sure.
posted on December 18, 2000 12:46:08 PM new
"Crime" is too broad a term to lump into one category, especially when talking about cause and effect.
Helping the disenfranchised would reduce some forms of crime, but probably not a majority. Others would require a change in human nature, since many crimes are a result of greed, hunger for power, or one's perception of right and wrong.
posted on December 18, 2000 01:00:01 PM new
You are all correct!
But, are we not even obligated to try?
There are and have been many who felt that it was their Christian Duty and a societal obligation to at least try to address the issues! While providing education for the masses, mental health for those that need it, and the opportunity and incentives for everyone to succeed may not reach each and every individual in America, it is the least that we can do. You have to start somewhere and then keep it going, because once you stop it, the ills that you are trying to cure come right back.
This is where understanding political parties comes to the threshold of every American voter's responsibility. In a Socialist government, the power of government is used to empower everyone - from the fortunate to the unfortunate. In a Fascist government - the opposite, government is a tool of the rich and powerful to keep their interests intact against all comers; to make sure that the power never shifts from those who have everything to those that have nothing. Social ills do not get fixed under a fascist system - they get ignored, murdered, or pushed back into the cellar or the closet. And that is the sort of government that you people who voted Republican in this last Presidential Election put into power!
posted on December 18, 2000 01:07:29 PM new
Not me... I didn't vote Republican.
So what can we do on an individual level? There must be more than just our votes that we can offer. Volunteer work? Finding someone who needs help and offering it? If so, in what form should help be offered?
I've often felt very fortunate for the opportunities I've had in life, though I don't think they're at all out of the ordinary. I grew up, went to college, graduated, got a job, got married, bought a house, and here I am. Pretty ordinary, but still, I consider myself lucky. Is that what we need to help people do so they don't turn to street crime? If it is, how can that be accomplished?
posted on December 18, 2000 01:22:22 PM newBorillar, I probably have more traditional Democratic sensibilities than I do Republican. I avoid the more partisan discussions because I don't even know on which side of the fence to stand. I even wonder why the fence is there.
You're take on this issue in some ways reminds me of that classic figure in Science Fiction: the compassionate scientist. He's the guy who gets eaten by the alien while trying to communcate with the "peaceful visitor" from another world. I don't try to understand the motivations of criminals, I only try to prevent or react to their behavior. My own life experience suggests that there are high rates of recidivism among certain types of criminals despite the best efforts of society to rehabilitate.
If we were both to define what should and should not be considered criminal behavior, we would probably agree.
I applaud your sensitivity but cannot personally support it.
posted on December 18, 2000 03:17:32 PM new
You are either a part of the solution or you are a part of the problem.
RainyBear: Volunteerism, charitable works, donations, or simply standing up for something greater than yourself just because you happen to be there at the time. When it comes time for the mob to give into despair, you stand up and shout that you will not give in because that's the easy thing to do, but also that you have Character and will fight what is wrong. Is it so much to convince a single individual that they are not isolated in their need? Can you think of just anything to do besides sit on the sidelines convincing yourself that you are powerless to affect your life and the lives of others? Will you give in to the Voice of Despair that is the not-so-secret agenda of the Republican party or will you be counted and stand up for what is right? Such decisions, I know, are not easy to make, but once made, are simple to get busy with.
xardon: I'm no starry-eyed idealist - I'm a pragmatist. To be able to see that human suffering does not have to take place when there is so much that can be done to prevent it; to know that the systems that are in place already to help those in need should not be torn down simply because not everyone can be helped; to do what is right to help yourself and your fellow man is not a sin, but rather a blessing from God - these are not the visions of crack-pots and long-haired heretics, but the ability - no, the willingness to see beyond yourself; to be a part of something greater than yourself. It doesn't take madness to see the madness, xardon, just a simple willingness to open your eyes and your heart.
posted on December 18, 2000 03:41:00 PM newBorillar I'm glad that there are people like you. If everyone were, the world might be a better place. I'm not like you. My idea of pragmatism is apparently not the same as yours, since I too think myself a pragmatist. Funny how subjectivity affects even basic definitions.
In any event, I see no real cause for debate. I admire your position. It's just not in me to embrace it.
posted on December 18, 2000 03:48:19 PM newxardon: I believe that when the time is right, you will be there and will take a stand; for all decent people there is a limit to how much suffering around them that they can take. Simply by showing up on message boards and supporting those of any political party that do not indulge in the politics of despair is doing somthing rather than nothing at all. And when it comes time to vote, you will vote your conscience . . . if only everyone would!
posted on December 18, 2000 07:18:54 PM new
james: For every ghetto kid who "never had a chance" and resorts to violent crime, there is a Daphne Abdela, very rich white kid, who sliced up a man in Central Park just to see him die. Does this mean she was "born under a bad sign"? It just might. Rape -- how 'bout horny drunken frat boy rape which occurs? There are all kinds of causes for crime, poverty being one for sure.
xardon: I don't try to understand the motivations of criminals, I only try to prevent or react to their behavior. My own life experience suggests that there are high rates of recidivism among certain types of criminals despite the best efforts of society to rehabilitate.
I agree with Borillar in principle. Wish I had more answers to some of the questions, but I have a few, and I think it not totally inappropriate to extrapolate to a certain extent.
Just as Borillar pointed out, children in homes where there is domestic violence overwhelmingly grow up to be either perpetrators or victims of domestic violence themselves.
Child molestors and incestors are MADE, not born. They have been victims of those types of crimes in their own childhoods and many (certainly not all) grow up to be perps. Those who don't grow up to be perps can turn that unresolved pain inward and become alcoholics, addicts or exhibit any number of other highly dysfunctional and self-destructive behavior.
I once had the opportunity to ask a prison counselor what causes sociopathic behavior. He replied "pre-verbal abandonment." I didn't get a chance to question him further on his fascinating response, but it had the ring of truth to it. There are different forms of abandonment -- one of them is emotional abandonment which can be just as devastating as physical abandonment.
But most people who "act out" as adults are acting out of deep inner pain from childhood. I don't know if there IS such a thing as a born predator. There may be, but I doubt it. I'll bet, James, that deep in the recesses of your Daphne's childhood are some perfectly horrid things she witnessed or was otherwise victimized by of a similar vein. Sometimes these things aren't in people's conscious memories, so it's hard to find out about them.
Even the horrible situation of Susan Smith who drowned her children (as she was simultaneously contemplating/attempting her own suicide, a little "fact" conveniently overlooked by many) -- there were horrible, horrible things from her childhood that helped explain her highly dysfunctional behavior. NOT "justify" it, not relieve her of responsiblity, but EXPLAIN it. (If you're not asking the right questions, you wont' get the right answers. The question of what do we do about crime requires a better understanding of how people come to be criminals in the first place.)
One of the big problems with the more hardcore cases is that we as a society don't have very many of the right tools to heal the human spirit. Too often, we don't care to LOOK for the tools. Unfortunately, you may not be able to take a repeat offender and just wave a magic wand of more education or other important social skills over them and "rehabilitate them." Sometimes that's enough, but often it isn't. There are deep and abiding spiritual/psycic/emotional wounds that aren't touched by most of our efforts at rehabilitation.
But then our prison system isn't into rehabilitation much anymore anyway. I've always thought our prison systems were mostly doomed to failure anyway, since we were never quite sure we wanted to "rehabilitate" or "punish" our incarcerees.
So, the way I see it, society (and that means all of us as a collective unit) fails our children in ways so that some of them grow up to become criminals. SOCIETY has failed. Those children didn't have to be grow up to be perps and offenders and criminals. Then SOCIETY fails them again by throwing them in prison, or sending them to their deaths, both of which get them "out of sight, out of mind." We, SOCIETY, don't have to face OUR failures when we have these people conveniently warehoused.
What scares the livin' hell out of me is the war on our children that's currently being waged -- trying them as adults younger and younger and sending them off to prison, sometimes for life. It just blows me away. It takes maturity (no matter what your age) to fully understand the consequences of your actions. What we're doing TO our young offenders is criminal.
I don't claim that what I've written about explains all crime, or applies to all criminals, but I know there's quite a bit of validity in there anyway. I also consider poverty, btw, a form of societal emotional abuse, along with racism, sexism, homophobia, and all the other forms of oppression. Not EVERYONE who grows up in "disadvantaged" circumstances goes the wrong way as an adult -- but that doesn't mean that these things aren't a contributing factor for those who do. I do believe some people are "older (more mature and perhaps stronger) souls" to begin with. Some are simply weaker and more vulnerable. We can't tell which is which just by looking at them, nor probably any other way we might think would be appropriate for sorting out the truly at risk children from the ones who'll make it through, and go beyond surviving to prospering triumphantly.
Too bad we don't have a society set up for makeing sure all our children end up prospering triumphantly. Until we do, society itself is complicit in most if not all crime.
posted on December 18, 2000 07:56:50 PM new
As a paralegal I spent two years volunteering at the woman's shelter helping victims of domestic violence fill out papers, file the restraining order, and advocate for them in the court hearing.
Abusive partners come from all economic and educational backgrounds, and yes, have usually witnessed or been abused themselves.
Some of the women would leave because the abuser had started to either physically or verbally abuse the children. Sometimes it was hard to convey the impact of witnessed attacks by the children to the mother.
At the shelter the observations I made that the boys would exhibit aggressive behavior towards other people or things. The girls would withdraw and show more signs of depression and submission. Of course these would be carried into adulthood without help and intervention.
