posted on May 31, 2002 12:34:24 PM
I recall reading some place on E-bay's TOS that you can not charge an additional fee if the bidder is using a credit card but now I can't find that. I am curiopus because I told another seller they can't charge that fee and now need proof to back it up
No Surcharges. Under Visa, MasterCard, Discover and American Express regulations and the laws of several states, including California, merchants may not charge a fee to the buyer for accepting credit card payments (often called a "surcharge" ). You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment. This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods).
posted on May 31, 2002 01:55:51 PM
You can offer a cash, check, money order discount. You can not charge the Fee. Meaning? Both of the above are correct.
posted on May 31, 2002 01:56:23 PM
Thats exactly what I needed. Now maybe the seller will listen to me. I'm not bidding on their product but I don't want to see them shut down or their pay pal account suspended
posted on June 1, 2002 11:09:08 PM
I clearly state in my ads that Paypal payments have a 3% handling fee. This does not violate their TOS since it's different than their 2.2% handling fee they charge me, therefore I am not passing this fee to the buyer, I'm charging them a higher fee.
I'll be danmned if I'm going to let Paypal tell me how to run my business!
In case you are wondering, the only credit card fee that's being paid is the fee Paypal pays to the CC company.
The fee you pay Paypal is a service charge, not a surcharge by Paypal. This service charge is for them to process the payment from the customer and send it to you.
Since Paypal themselves have to abide by the CC companies strick rule against passing the fees to the customer (seller), they cannot call their fees a surcharge. If it's defined as a service charge, it can be passed to the seller.
posted on June 2, 2002 10:38:21 AM
There notice says it is illegal in most states. Not True. In fact, the opposite is true and many government agencies charge the service charge for accepting credit card payments. It is only against PayPal policy.
posted on June 2, 2002 11:09:36 AMI clearly state in my ads that Paypal payments have a 3% handling fee. This does not violate their TOS since it's different than their 2.2% handling fee they charge me
This is against their TOS unless you charge EVERYONE that 3% fee, including people who do not pay by PayPal. You can, however, "Discount" other payment methods by 3%....
There notice says it is illegal in most states
Actually, what it says is "and the laws of several states, including California", not "most states". It is not only against PayPal policy, but is against ALL the major credit card companies TOS.
The government can get away with it because they call it a "convenience fee", not a "credit card fee". They are charging you for the "convenience" of being able to pay with a CC.
No one makes anyone take PayPal or Credit Cards, it is a choice....if you don't like their rules, don't play in their back yard.
********
I seldom if ever buy, as I am primarily a seller, but the few times I do purchase on at auction, I check shipping prices, and personally, if I see a "handling" charge, I go to another seller. If I see an inflated shipping cost, I move on to another seller.
I think experienced buyers are more aware of shipping costs, and will often skip auctions which have excessive costs, or handling charges.
We require insurance, and I've been questioned by buyers regarding even that issue, so I am sure many are very selective regarding buying when any "extra" is charged for "handling," "shipping," or PayPal or credit card usage.
As a seller, I'd prefer the clean, fast use of PayPal or a credit card, to the lingering, "I wonder where it is," or get lost in the mail or the million other situations which can occur with any thing sent via snail mail.
Personally, I prefer, buy, pay, ship and move on...fast, clean, and a done deal, to the time involved and longer record keeping of MO's and checks.
[ edited by JWPC on Jun 2, 2002 03:28 PM ]
posted on June 2, 2002 11:00:56 PM
There is a new wrinkle out there as well. I won two auctions a couple of weeks ago. Both stated in there TOS that they accepted PayPal. While I have definite mixed feelings about PayPal as a seller, I am willing to bid higher on an auction that allows me to pay ASAP with a credit card.
Anyway, in *both* of these auctions, after I had won the item, the sellers informed me that while they do accept PayPal, they do NOT accept credit card payments through PayPal! I did have enough in my account to cover the first one, for the other, I had to wait until Monday when I could deposit cash into the account that is tied to my PayPal account, then get online and request money to be transferred that checking account into my PayPal account so I could finally pay the seller!
Quite frankly, I was not real happy. If I had known up from that I could not use my credit card, I may have bid on another item (at least in one case, in the other the BIN price was so good I would have bought it anyway!)
Is there some financial advantage for the seller here? Or are these people just trying to avoid the risk of chargebacks.
And speaking of chargebacks, I notice that eBays BillPoint now claims to offer chargeback protection. Has anyone looked into this?
Thanks
posted on June 2, 2002 11:14:57 PM
Dennis,
Those people most likely do not have a merchant account. So they are only able to accept two types of payments. Any payment funded by a balance or non-credit card. And second they can only accept so much from accounts funded by credit cards. The exact figure escapes me at the moment, but it is not much. Yes, there is an financial advantage to it as there are no fees charged to the seller on a personal account, but there are many restrictions in which they can accept payments.
posted on June 3, 2002 06:34:09 AM
superman100 says "I clearly state in my ads that Paypal payments have a 3% handling fee. This does not violate their TOS since it's different than their 2.2% handling fee they charge me"
You are joking, right? If PP discovers what you are doing, they are hardly going to accept that explanation.
posted on June 3, 2002 06:54:14 AM
JWPC--I dont have a problem with Paypal or credit cards charging me for the privlege of using their services--I do have a problem with people Im buying from charging me for it.I use it all the time-buying and selling-when I sell something I eat the charge-for me its worth the convience.So Im going to tell you what you told me-as a seller if you dont like their charges dont use it.
posted on June 3, 2002 09:40:12 AM
Only the eBay and PayPal policies apply. When you sign up with PayPal, you do not sign an agreement with a credit card processing center. Everyone must remember, you do not accept credit cards, PayPal does. You accept PayPal.
So, there may be a way to circumvent eBay and PayPal policies.....
You can charge a "processing fee" which is a percentage of the sale but it will be waived for those who use checks or money orders.
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
[ edited by mlecher on Jun 3, 2002 09:44 AM ]
posted on June 4, 2002 01:43:45 PM
In the state of CA & 9 other states, it is illegal to put a surcharge on credit cards. CA Civil Code #1748.1. Also go to google & ask for credit card surcharges. It will give you all of the info about this, including the states where it is illegal.
[ edited by sanmar on Jun 4, 2002 01:44 PM ]
posted on June 4, 2002 06:46:07 PM
Either add the expected fee amount to your
opening bid (or reserve) to cover the extra
cost, or add it into the shipping cost you
list. The former is easier than the later,
but both are legal. Good luck!
Z
---
"Cannot say. Saying, I would know. Do not
know, so cannot say". -- Zathras (Babylon 5)
When you take PayPal, you are NOT taking credit cards. Only those who have signed an agreement with a CC clearing center(PayPal is not) can take credit cards.
Also, by adding the fee by increasing the opening bid or S&H, you are increasing PayPal's profit.
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
[ edited by mlecher on Jun 5, 2002 05:49 AM ]
posted on June 6, 2002 07:52:06 AM
first, for those who say stuff like "I add a charge for PayPal and it's right there on my page", I would like to request that you send a link to one of those auctions to PayPal and ask them outright if you are violating their terms...then post the results of your query here so that all this speculation about what is ok with PayPal is put to rest.
second, if you're going to ding people for PayPal, PLEASE do it upfront on your auction pages, clearly stating whatever kind of packing-handling-excess use of electrons-euphemism you want to give it. I won an auction a while back and seller had the usual PayPal logo on his page but made no specific reference to it in his TOS, then his EOA mail says "buyers wishing to use PayPal please add 8.00" EIGHT DOLLARS!!! When I questioned him, he replied that he had been doing that for a long time and it was perfectly ok with PP and my objection was the first he had ever received. It may have been the first, but it was also the last, as one forward of our communications to PP was all it took to put a stop to it....
posted on June 6, 2002 09:42:41 AM
The transacton is between me and the seller. The law takes hold where the seller, who is initiating the surcharge, conducts business. Paypal should not be enforcing their state laws onto me. In my state it is legal to have a surcharge.
It works the same for all state laws. If Ticket scalping is
illegal in Califoirnia, ebay still allows you to sell tickets above the ticket price in (the seller's) states where it is legal.
Sellers can charge additional fees for paypal, to all buyers. If a seller said please add 2% to your total for paypal, that is not evidence enough that the seller is only including the fee to the payal user. They may be saying that to cash customers too!
posted on June 6, 2002 10:41:10 AM
No, you can not charge additional fees for PayPal. That is against PayPal policies which you agreed to when you signed up. HOWEVER, you can charge a 3%, or whatever, processing fee which will be waived for those who pay by check or money order or strange shaped stones or shiny beads etc...
There are only 10 types of people in the world
Those who understand binary and those who don't
posted on June 6, 2002 07:41:10 PM
It's irrelevant if an auction states 2.5% paypal charge because that is allowed by Paypal since the seller did not necessarily single out Paypal users.
I did not say this is a matter of law, but Paypal should not be enforcing California law upon me.
posted on June 6, 2002 09:16:31 PM
quickdraw29 wrote:
"It's irrelevant if an auction states 2.5% paypal charge because that is allowed by Paypal since the seller did not necessarily single out Paypal users."
I'm not sure why that does "not necessarily single out PayPal users"...of course it does...it's irrelevant to non PayPal users, as they arent going to be subject to the charge, are they?
It seems like these threads always involve a lot of folks speculating about what PP will accept, and no input by the horrible profiteering PayPal villains themselves, so-o-o-o-o...
I just sent this exact email to PayPal from their help center. It will be interesting to see if, and what they reply.
"question: If an auction sellers states on his auction page:
"2.5 percent PayPal charge", would this be considered by PayPal to be a violation of the user agreement? Thanks in advance for your reply.
profe51"
posted on June 6, 2002 11:08:12 PM
This is what eBay has to say on this question
Sellers may not charge eBay buyers an additional fee for their use of ordinary forms of payment, including acceptance of checks, money orders, electronic transfers or credit cards. Such costs should be built into the price of the item -- this policy reduces the potential for confusion among bidders about the true cost of an item. Further, some forms of payment surcharges, such as credit card surcharges, are forbidden under the laws of many states, including California. For more information, see: http://www.mastercardintl.com/faq.html/#b_cust_serv
if that url doesn't work go to ebay and click the help box on the top of the page. Type in surcharge and you will get this information. I hope this helps to clearify the question.
posted on June 6, 2002 11:13:41 PM
"I'm not sure why that does "not necessarily single out PayPal users"...of course it does...it's irrelevant to non PayPal users, as they arent going to be subject to the charge, are they?"
It does not necessarily single out paypal users because the seller can add it to all orders including cash customers. By Paypal's definition that is not a surcharge. A surcharge is when it applies only to Paypal users.
"non-paypal users aren't going to be subject to the charge?"
Why wouldn't they be subject to the charge? To use the loophole the seller would have to charge all the customers the same fee. I charge all my customers a paypal fee and it is allowable by Paypal.
Paypal has already responded to many posters on other threads concerning this topic, so I don't know why you think they will answer differently this time. No surcharges are allowed, but sellers can recoup their fee's by adding it to all orders. It's a very simple concept that opponents to the fee can't seem to grasp.
