The first eBay Announcement dealing with FRAUD mentioned early on that eBay was seriously thinking of taking steps to ELIMINATE anonymity on eBay.
In one of the threads about the TELEPHONE NUMBERS in the EOAs, one poster suggested that the payment method at 1/2.com eliminates the NPB and alla the nasty emails that the troll/prankster/pest/teenager etc/etc often pulls on sellers to screw up their business.
However, this bespeaks a turn to MORE anonymity, not less.
What do YOU feel about eBay taking steps to bring an end to anonymity, which in their first post said would eliminate the immediate re-registration of unsavory members of the community.
I am VERY curious to learn where they got that i.d. to put names/addies/phone#s in EOAs - sounds ghastly, but I wonder if this proposal originated from law enforcement authorities??
Who am I? Only my haiRdrSSr knoWs for shuRe!
[ edited by radh on Sep 15, 2000 05:25 PM ]
posted on September 15, 2000 05:40:52 PM
Hi spaz! Well, actually, I hope so --- but, truly, I think NOT. Here's the part of the AB Announcement that I believe we will be seeing some action on by eBay, and such action is bound to be very werry controversial.
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*** Fraud - eBay Responsibility ***
"We have been watching discussions on our boards concerning fraud. We definitely hear what you are saying and honestly care about your trading safety. eBay's success is dependent on the community's ability to successfully complete transactions....
"We are working on changes that will allow us to remove anonymity on eBay and other changes that will allow us to keep unsavory members off of eBay once they are suspended. We will continue to work on additional safeguards with an emphasis on prevention.
"We are also working on changes that will help honest sellers to increase their trading success. This includes improvements to the Non Paying Bidder process, addressing inappropriate bid retractions, and offering options that ensure payment, e.g., electronic check payment option."
posted on September 15, 2000 06:14:16 PM
Is there anonymity on eBay right now for honest users?
I think the current LACK of anonymity on eBay is appalling. It is a trivial matter for ANYONE to find out anything you bought or sold for the past 2 months, at least. Then, it is again trivial to find your home address and phone number.
In what way does this process give me ANY anonymity?
Sure, there are people who give false contact info, and that should be stopped.
But, at the same time, I think it is wrong to make such an enormous scope of information available to absoltuely anyone.
What is to stop a crook from finding people in their area who have made major purchase -- diamond rings, high priced collectibles, home theater equipment, whatever -- then pulling their contact info, staking out their house, and "paying them a visit" when they know the house will be empty?
What an age we live in when THIS is defined as anonymity...
posted on September 15, 2000 06:53:35 PMrahd, this reminds me of the discussions that we had on AW this last Winter about eBay mandating a more extensive verification process.
I recall that in those threads, so many Sellers balked at the idea because the IRS would learn about their $50,000 a month income from eBay; or however much they were hiding from them. Yep, they stated they'd take their business and run away to other auction sites 2% as large as eBay is just to hide some more! The really funny part for me was, was to see how many "respectable" AW posters turned out to hiding income and avoiding taxes like we all have to pay.
Yes, not only would hard verification reduce online fraud and Naru'd jerks who don't get the message that they aren't wanted, but it also would expose everyone's income and who trusts eBay to not turn everyone in to the IRS, eh?
I think that eBay can't take the chance of loosing thier large Sellers because of fears that the IRS might catch them! So this thing about less anonymity is just another "let them eat cake!" placation to the peasants . . . er, Auction Users!
posted on September 15, 2000 07:19:22 PMThe really funny part for me was, was to see how many "respectable" AW posters turned out to hiding income and avoiding taxes like we all have to pay.
That's utter nonsense, borellar. The primary objection to the ebay promoted user verification program was that there would be a requirement to give social security numbers to an independently contracted company who it was found was also in the business of providing demographic information pertaining to income and spending habits of individuals to marketing analysis conductors.
You may recall that the only agencies who are authorized to access information via SSN data are the Social Security Administration and the IRS.
posted on September 15, 2000 07:26:03 PM
Amalgamated - I totally hear you on the desire for anonymity thing, but the reality of buying stuff from anyone, online or off, is that you could get skrewed over by an anonymous person, and that's exactly why there are so many bloody scammers... it's just something we have to live with on the web...
I say we leave it to sellers to prove that they have nothing to hide (at least in terms of their business practices) by showing their information, or at least that it has been verified by eBay or whoever.
Apparently, there's this new program called squaretrade that will verify a seller's contact information and references, so that they can display a seal of approval on their auctions... i checked out their site, and they seem to be pretty cool. i read about them in this week's auction watch feature article, "Who's who at Online Auction?" we could all deal with doing a little due diligence, especially if there's other people out there to do it for you!
it's not like you have to deal with the government, and you also wouldn't have to report your income...
posted on September 15, 2000 08:02:08 PMborillar: the IRS already has access to any records whatsoever that they may want from eBay about anybody who ever placed a bid, or sold an item.
The reason that people were soooooo agitated against the initial eBay User Verification plan was that it utilized, E-Q-U-I-F-A-X, and they are known for lotsa mistakes in credit records which have caused undue turmoil in too many peoples' lives.
Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that NO verification program has ever mentioned the idea of keeping the data base of names/identities on a system which is completely OFF the Internet -- just some ol' machine somewhere in a bunker, that no hacker had ANY access to.
posted on September 15, 2000 08:08:57 PM
radh, as usual another good topic. I'd like to see the shades go away, and straight email addresses used from buyers and sellers. I don't like dealing with anyonomous accounts myself. I don't like phone numbers available though. Email works for me.
posted on September 15, 2000 08:08:57 PM
amalgamated2000 thankfully stated the all too obvious, "I think the current LACK of anonymity on eBay is appalling. It is a trivial matter for ANYONE to find out anything you bought or sold for the past 2 months, at least. Then, it is again trivial to find your home address and phone number. In what way does this process give me ANY anonymity?"
~ ~ ~ ~
Yeah, I'd have to agree with you heartedly -- Not only is one open to every stray Net k00k, any vicious competitors, miscellaneous people who despise you, bored teenagers, chatboard "enemies", corporate saboteurs, agent provocateurs, but over and above that, any stray criminal can record your buying habits and from there who knows what all can happen.
It seems to me that verifying people AND ENSURING ANONYMITY would be more in line with what professional law enforcement authorities might advise eBay.
posted on September 15, 2000 08:13:42 PM
Say -- are there any stray lawyers out & about tonight?
What I'm curious about is about AUCTION LAW.....
The FBI is investigating shilling on that oil painting auction, and after they began their probe everyone learned that shilling is a FELONY, and punishable with up to a million dollar fine per count.
Now, I do know that interferring with the practices of a business is against the law; but what I'm wondering is if AUCTION INTERFERENCE and/or AUCTION SABOTAGE might likewise be a felony.
Cuz, see, if it is -- all we need is one high profile investigation, and then *pooF!*
posted on September 15, 2000 08:23:58 PM
radh, I saw that. For a moment I thought I was on a chat line (which I never do) so yeah, smiles to you too!
If PayPal has done an about face on sellers and buyers, ebay has it's own way of regaining control of it's buyers and sellers then why do we continue to take the bait? Is it our own greed or need? I'm miffed as to where this whole thing is going to end. It all began quite innocently, and turned into quite a learning experience for me and from what I see alot of others here too. I can only urge you to continue to dig and find the evidence we're going to need up the road to show that ...hmmm, we were victimized?
posted on September 15, 2000 08:47:03 PM
I think the privacy issue trumps all others, including fraud. As imperfect as the current system is, I still prefer it to the alternatives. I have already been added involuntarily to a dozen mailing lists with data mined off eBay, but that's nothing compared to the abuses that would be possible with further mining (of course it's all against eBay policy, but people doing it can be just as scummy as the fraudsters eBay is more concerned about).
It's easy to see why eBay would think the fraud/abuse/perception-of-insecurity side is the greater concern, as it's easier to draw the link with that and lost future business. EBay doesn't have to deal with the escalating spams that could also turn into junk mail, telemarketing, etc., as the "quality" of mined data increases and unsuspecting users become better and better "prospects" for unwanted but highly targeted pitches.
Like fraud/abuse, a lot of that activity goes against eBay policy. But it doesn't affect eBay's bottom line.
So guess which problem -- fraud/abuse or privacy -- will get eBay's attention?
posted on September 15, 2000 09:36:08 PM
Wonderful! Just what I need! The freak who sends threatening email can have my address?
Right now, they can get my name, but I use my business phone number on ebay to avoid those unexpected 3:00 AM chats with a an unhappy competitor who hates snipers.
IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHO I AM UNLESS I CHOOSE TO DO BUSINESS WITH YOU! By the way, I am a buyer only, have more than 500 successful purchases to my credit, and am not hiding from the IRS.
posted on September 15, 2000 09:42:06 PM
"...The reason that people were soooooo agitated against the initial eBay User Verification plan was that it utilized, E-Q-U-I-F-A-X, and they are known for lotsa mistakes in credit records which have caused undue turmoil in too many peoples' lives...."
The "initial" verification plan? Does this mean that this bogus idea has been dropped? I might consider Ebay verification if they don't have to access my credit file and interrogate me about its contents, in order to be sure I am who I say I am.
[ edited by pickersangel on Sep 15, 2000 09:50 PM ]
posted on September 15, 2000 10:53:11 PM
I welcome it. I use my real full name on eBay, on yahoo, as my eMail addr, and here on AW. I like to think that my customers like seeing my name on my auctions - not some 'nickname'. My eMail handle is easy for people who know me to remember -- provided they can remember how to spell the name. And you here can call me by my real name - not "auction-dude" or something like that. Nobody has ever bothered me because of this -- no stalkers have sprung up and said "Aha! a real person! I shall now proceed to harass him!" Heck, they could do that with the phone book...
I'm reminded of an odd story that has always stuck in my mind, a little off topic. In the neatherlands, people don't necessarily - or even typically - pull the shades on windows that face the streets, at least not of living rooms and the like. People there don't feel like they have to - or want to - hide what they do in those public rooms. In fact, people who kept their shades pulled all the time would be considered 'odd'. A sort of different way of living when considered from a typical american viewpoint, no?
posted on September 15, 2000 10:54:02 PM
My recollection of the complaints about ID verify were a combination of the social security number being needed, and that it was going to be done through Equifax.
The intro to the ID Verify process (http://pages.ebay.com/services/buyandsell/idverify-login.html) on eBay currently says:
"Verification involves a simple two-step process. In the first step, you are asked to fill out a questionnaire with your name, address, driver's license information, date of birth, Social Security Number (which is optional) and other information that helps to identify you. In the second step, you are asked questions based on information contained in your consumer report, obtained from Equifax Credit Information Services, Inc. You are asked to identify certain installment and credit accounts, and their associated monthly payments. This personal credit information should be known to you and generally not others, so the accuracy of your responses should verify your identity. "
posted on September 16, 2000 12:56:06 AMkrs: wasn't I , . . . er, completely sarcastic enough? Since you took it so seriously, I'll agree with you and say that there were many real reasons in that great debate not to go through the existing verification process. What simply stuck in my mind was the amount of Sellers who complained that they were afraid that eBay would be compelled to share the info with the IRS. It's a dead dog whose old dry bones I dug up for the sake of a few laughs.
posted on September 16, 2000 04:59:58 AM
I have a friend in Washington who says that Federal Regulation of ANYONE who sell goods via eCommerce will soon be ready.
This will mean that all ebay sellers will have to be licensed and pass a credit and FBI background check, complete with fingerprints. . .
posted on September 16, 2000 09:21:32 AM
Boy, eBay is desperate in getting customers, yet the customers are scared off via privacy concerns but eBay itself and other sites, not to mention the paranoia instilled into us by years of conditioning...
To think, we can't learn from the information that is at hand.
When will it take someone with the cajones to figure out to ensure survival, you must adapt on the fly? If the customer doesn't want it, then don't instate it.
The Sliver has spoken, and now is gone...
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on September 16, 2000 09:34:38 AM
C_Sliver: I know individuals who, due to the DOUBLECLICK debacle ain't gonna come online. No more hemming and hawing for them; what's funy is that most of them are the Upscale IMPULSE spender that ecommerce touts it wants.
Marketing has led to a VERY WERRY BORING Internet, filled with stooooooooopid glitzy sites. Maybe the naysayers from years back, bespeaking of the faddishness of cyberspace will have their day yet, as really the HYPE and the stooooopid "free this" and "free that" - it makes the supermarket tabloids appear as respectable demure publications in comparison.
I think the worst of it, though, is the references I sometimes see referring to e-tail as, "A Trojan Horse for Advertising."
So, they are saying that the ADs make more money for e-tail, than the sales; but NOBODY wants alla these stooooooooopid stinkin' ads!
SPAZMODEUS: No, I realllllly do NOT think that one messagethread can possibly cover alla the possible actions and their reverberations, which might be covered in this part of the AB Message:
""We are working on changes that will allow usto remove anonymity on eBay andother changes that will allow us tokeep unsavory members off of eBay..."
posted on September 17, 2000 07:12:52 AM
Lately I've been getting the snot beaten out of my be spammers who are harvesting my address from eBay.
I have *repeatedly* told eBay that the problem is growing, it is going to get worse, and HOW to deal with it.
In a nutshell, what is needed is MORE privacy, not less.
No "window shopper" should have access to any member's email address, let alone phone number or address.
ONLY the two parties to a *completed* transaction should be allowed that information, period.
Oh, but what about someone who wants to ask a seller a question before bidding?
Easy: set up a web form where you type in a message, hit the button, and *eBay* then mails the question. That sort of protection is not exactly rocket science, and *scads* of websites have been doing it for *years*.
So what was eBay's respone?
They don't respond. That's their response, nothing.
As to the banner ad/web bug nightmare, I've advocated rigging the HOSTS file, and I use the technique myself. But, it's less than perfect. First, it slows down *everything* you're doing when a page has a toilet-load of nosey snoop-links. And second, recent versions of IE have a problem with unavailable URLS in frames -- each one gets pushed into your back-button history stack, necessitating a click (and delay) for each one.
I'm in the process of writing an IE add-in that will solve all that. It sill simply head 'em off at the pass. NOTHING from ANY address in the list of domains you supply will be accepted, and there will be no delay, and, no problem with the back-button.
The other advantage is that it will be domain-wide (even multi-domain: adding "foo" to the list will target "foo.com", "foo.net", etc. When you use HOSTS, you have to add EACH machine to the list.
The program will be free for the taking. It will -- if widely used -- be the death of invasive tracking via embedded URLs.
Think of it as a "Pandora Project" for the web.
I'll post the URL for it here when it's done unless that would violate AW guidelines. (hopefully someone will chime in and let me know)
posted on September 17, 2000 08:04:39 AM
Both of our emails have been getting slammed by SPAM. But my Netscape email hasn't been touched since I don't use it much...
R U shure you ain't gittin' tat SPAM avalaunche from posting HERE?
Whenever I state a non-popular opinion, I ""automatically"" go back on the spammer lists -- b/c, I presume some people decide i shud be *punished* -- LOL
Also, didcha know that plenty of websites, when you're surfin' can RETRIEVE YOUR EMAIL ADDIE?
