The transaction was reversed because our seller protection policy
does not cover sellers from receiving chargebacks against anything
other than fraudulent funds or false claims of non-receipt of
merchandise. If you have not already received your merchandise
from the buyer, and would like the merchandise returned to you,
please contact the buyer directly.
If this reversal has put your account balance in the negative, you
can reimburse PayPal by sending a check to the following address:
PayPal - Accounting Dept.
PO Box 45950
Omaha, NE 68145-0950
Please note that this withholding is in accordance with our Terms
of Use, Section IV, Paragraph 3.
In the future, you can protect yourself against fraudulent buyers
by following the conditions of our Seller Protection Policy. For
full details, please visit our Terms of Service at:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/terms-outside
posted on January 15, 2002 09:58:24 AM new
We take appropriate actions against accounts that appear to be operating in suspect manner.And we do work with law enforcement to help go after people defrauding other users.
O.K., so what appropriate actions did you take against the member who defrauded me and 10 other people? Answer-NONE!!!
What law enforcement agency did you contact or work with? Answer-NONE!!!
What protection policy helped me in this case? Answer-NONE!!!
Of the 4 emails sent to PayPal asking for help, how many were answered? Answer-NONE!!!
When I was on the phone with PayPal, how many customer service people were willing to help? Answer-NONE!!!
posted on January 15, 2002 10:01:30 AM new
transaction date 7/17/01
do you know when the buyer files chargeback??
i thought a buyer has to file within 60days??
posted on January 15, 2002 10:05:52 AM new
I HAVE NO CLUE AS MY ACCOUNT IS CLOSED AND I HAVE NO ACCESS TO THE INFO BUT IS EVEN MORE PROOF THAT PAYPAL IS TWEAKING THE SYSTEM TO KEEP THE FUNDS IT SEIZED. I STRESS WITH URGENCY EVERY ONE SHOULD RUN FAR AWAY FROM PAYPAL AND CLOSE ACCOUNTS THAT ARE ATTACHED BECAUSE THESE COWBOYS WILL BEND, MANIPULATE, DISGUISE OR OPERATE OUTSIDE OF THE RULES THEY CREATE DAILY. I HOPE MOST PEOPLE HAVE COMMON SENSE AND WILL HELP SPREAD THE WORD!
posted on January 15, 2002 10:07:40 AM new
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. If NWREBEL did not cancel the echeck who did?
2. Why was his Vendor notified that he did?
3. Where are the funds that were removed from his bank account by PAYPAL to cover the echeck?
posted on January 16, 2002 12:51:23 PM new
Damon,
It's not the weekend now. Where did you go? Are you afraid to tell the truth? It's really easy to see how PayPal is encouraging fraud with the way it's TOS are worded. Hell, you'd think that they were written by a scam artist. I'm waiting for you Damon........
posted on January 16, 2002 01:07:49 PM new
Hi dealerjim,
PayPal can't go after every circumstance of fraud.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We take appropriate actions against accounts that appear to be operating in suspect manner.And we do work with law enforcement to help go after people defrauding other users.
O.K., so what appropriate actions did you take against the member who defrauded me and 10 other people? Answer-NONE!!!
(What actions have you, or the other parties involved, taken to go after the seller?)
What law enforcement agency did you contact or work with? Answer-NONE!!!
(We do work with the FBI,Internet Fraud Center,etc. Did you contact any of these agencies about the issue with the individual party to alert them? Did you contact local law enforcement?)
What protection policy helped me in this case? Answer-NONE!!!
(Our terms of use do advise that we can't guarantee recovery, nor can we verify that a a seller will come through as promised. The same applies to any payment medium. This is where USER discretion comes into play)
Of the 4 emails sent to PayPal asking for help, how many were answered? Answer-NONE!!!
(I can't confirm that)
When I was on the phone with PayPal, how many customer service people were willing to help? Answer-NONE!!!
(What was your question? Account specifics on the seller? This, as has been advised several times, can't be release without following the process I outlined for you.)
posted on January 16, 2002 01:34:44 PM new
The same applies to any payment medium. you've made this quote numerous times and your wrong Damon. I called western union and asked "If a person sends me money through them and uses a fraudualant credit card do they try to get the money back from me." Their answer was "NO the lose is theirs and that person is not allowed to use their service again." Most companys take responsibility for their mistakes.It's known as the cost of doing business. In there S-1 filing they would have everyone believe that they are suffering the lose when in fact they hold their honest customers liable for their short comings.
I am afraid you are wrong. The issue that you are referencing is chargeback liability for chargebacks received from a credit card payment. PayPal's rules re: chargeback liability are no different than ANY merchant service provider.
What am I referencing?
If you send a payment through any medium, does it guarantee that a recipient of said payment will come through on delivering a product or service? No. If not, then the dispute is between the two parties.
posted on January 16, 2002 02:29:49 PM new
dealerjim:
You're wasting your time here. I was just defrauded out of $500 as a seller. PayPal has concrete proof that the transaction was completed. But since the item was a domain name and not an item that could be shipped, I have no protection under the Seller Protection scam. What really gets me is that even though they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the buyer perpetrated a fraud, they immediately did a reversal on the payment FROM MY BANK ACCOUNT without even requiring the buyer to jump through the hoops to do a chargeback. The buyer is still a PayPal user in good standing with no chargeback on his record. And all of this AFTER PayPal received irrefutable proof of the fraud. Amazing!
Oh, and by the way, contrary to what Damon says on these boards, PayPal does indeed take money from a user's bank account without his explicit permission. I foundthat out first-hand.
Damon & PayPal, that $500 you confiscated from me without due process won't even begin to cover the headaches in your future.
posted on January 16, 2002 03:39:14 PM new
Don't worry. There are 12,000,000+ members for them to steal money from. They seem to be good at it. After all, they just keep getting away with it.
posted on January 16, 2002 04:34:22 PM new
Damon it's simple call western union and ask the same question and then spank yourself for lying or being just plain uninformed.
<br />
<br />
Hey Jim and all lets put a stop to this meet me on monday the 21st in front of the american arbritration assoc. offices at in San Francisco at 9A.M. I've invited a host of reporters. <br />
[ edited by club1man on Jan 16, 2002 04:37 PM ]
posted on January 16, 2002 09:51:56 PM new
Damon, you say the same thing could happen through any payment medium. Well, not through a credit card. If people use their credit card they have protection under the law that says they won't have to pay if they didn't receive goods, etc.
Also, you ask dealerjim whether he has done anything to go after the seller. The answer, is how can he? He does not have the contact information for the person. You do. The only way he can force you to give him that information is through a subpeona, which could cost over $2000 in legal fees, etc. PayPal, on the other hand, wouldn't lose $2000 by going after the seller since you already have the contact information. 11 transactions where the goods were never shipped with the same seller would prompt you to investigate, right? You admit that the seller committed a wrong, whether you call it fraud or not, in the e-mail you sent to the buyers saying that the seller is at fault, but their account is at 0. However, since they haven't been convicted in a court of law you can't assume they are guilty of anything. Well they can't be convicted in a court of law if you don't give the appropriate people the contact information of the seller who didn't ship the goods. You can't go to court and say you want to sue someone but you don't know who you are suing. If the buyer complaint is less than $2000 (or whatever it costs to get a subpeona), then there is no point to going after the seller, since they lose money. Why do you keep making it sound like Dealerjim and others can do anything to go after the seller?
posted on January 16, 2002 10:20:54 PM new
Hi club1man,
Western Union is accepting the chargeback liability for the transaction when a credit card is used. That would be why they would not let the party use the system again.
Chargeback liability is present in all credit card transactions, regardless of the organization/party accepting the payment. PayPal users agree to accept chargeback liability for credit card transactions, which is no different than merchant accounts, as well as the other epayment services that I am aware of.Please review the terms of use for any merchant service provider if you don't believe me. Chargeback liability is in place.
Hi andrew123s,
The only thing that has happened with dealerjim? The party has claimed that they did not receive the goods. The information on the party can be had, as has been advised several times, via subpoena.
The legal process prevents me from just stating that you defrauded me. I can make whatever claims I want, but it has to be proven in a court. In addition, the reasons for releasing information on a party have been given. Let's say...
-I accuse you of doing something wrong. You may not have.
-I contact the organization for information on you.
-They give it to me.
Come to find out, there has been no wrongdoing, but your personal information has been given out.
-You are outraged because we gave information out about you without your consent
-You sue the organization
Would you really like organizations you do business with to release information on you without due process?
Dealerjim has been advised that we will:
-cooperate with any legal requests for information on the party
- that getting the information will require a subpoena
The user that has been defrauded, if they truly have been, has an obligation to report it on their own volition. PayPal can only verify if the user has not complied with the Seller Protection Policy, not that an actual fraud has happened. For all we know, dealerjim received the product, but the seller could not provide proof.
If you wrote a check/money order, is that company going to go after the party for you?
No. The dispute is between the sender and recipient.
I have already advised that we work closely with several agencies re:internet fraud. It doesn't mean that we can take up every instance of users claiming they were defrauded.
All we have concluded with dealerjim's issue? That the seller did not comply with the Seller Protection Policy, which means they run the risk of reversal on the transaction. It doesn't guarantee that we can recover for dealerjim (explained in our terms of use), nor does it mean the seller has money in the account for recovery on dealerjim's behalf.
Mrbusinessman,
I have already advised you that the pending reversal is against your PayPal account. The chargeback recovery against the bank account applies to users after October 11,2001. Your buyer, for whatever reason, contacted the credit card company to dispute the charge. We only applied liability for the chargeback against your PayPal account. You have not given me the information on the transaction for me to advise you on what the issue is.
posted on January 16, 2002 10:53:33 PM new
Well all I can say to PayPal is just keep on protecting fraudulent users and see how far your company makes it. Not everyone can afford the money involved in pursuing a $100 loss. Its just not feasible, so these scam artists go free thanks to Paypals disregard for their law abiding members. If 11 people filing claims against one seller for the same thing isn't enough to warrant investigating then what the hell is? I hope the remaining 10 people who got shafted will close their accounts just like I did. PayPal obviously doesn't need us anyway.
Damon,
I noticed a recent story about a student scamming PayPal members out of millions of dollars. I guess your protecting him too, huh? What your company needs is a dose of its own medicine.
posted on January 17, 2002 06:08:34 AM new
If I am understanding you correctly damon....
I can go rip off 500 people like dealerjim for 100 each. (Quick 50 Grand!)
or Lets get Greedy 500 people at $1000
(quick 500 grand!)
& As long as no one puts up the 2000 to get the supena basically nothing is going to happen to me.
Hey lets be honest here. How many people are going to put out $2000 to recover $100...0r $1000?
Oh PAYPAL may try to recover the funds but I think that if anyone were planning to pull off a situation like this that those funds collected would have been in about 7 different bank accounts...
So just at what point does PAYPAL start protecting buyers from situations like this?
Let me just include one more thing....
ANYONE can be a thief. (security 101)
[ edited by GU1HToM on Jan 17, 2002 08:35 AM ]
posted on January 17, 2002 09:57:15 AM new
I think the 500 people at $100 would probably be the best way not to get caught. If you went with the $1000 idea, I'm sure there will be a person or two that will pursue it just out of spite. However as long as your using PayPal to transfer the money, they will protect your personal information. You will need multiple PayPal accounts to do it though. The seller that got me had 3 different accounts to accept payment with. He would do this in case one of his accounts were locked for non delivery, he would have more accounts to do business with. PayPal makes it easy to steal other peoples money and not get caught. If I didn't have a conscious I would be doing it myself. You can sit in the privacy of your own home and steal from people all over the world using the loopholes in PayPal's TOS.
posted on January 17, 2002 02:56:32 PM newYou have not given me the information on the transaction for me to advise you on what the issue is.
And I don't intend to. PayPal's CUSTOMER SERVICE DEPARTMENT is supposed to handle these issues, not a PR person on a message board.
We see it time and again: A customer has an issue with PayPal that should have been quickly resolved through PayPal's Customer Service. It isn't. PayPal stalls, lies, and refuses to give the accused the facts of the case. He gets the standard "We have received a complaint from another PayPal user about merchandise not received or not as described". This says NOTHING! Frustrated and confused, he comes to these boards seeking help. As a damage control measure, PayPalDamon (usually) helps resolve the issue. It's only the sqeaky wheels that get any REAL CUSTOMER SERVICE and then only as a last resort due to the need for damage control.
Well it won't happen in my case. I have already decided that it's in my best interest to close my PayPal account and be done with it. My time and energy can best be utilized warning others
[ edited by MrBusinessMan on Jan 17, 2002 02:58 PM ]
posted on January 17, 2002 03:13:29 PM new
MrBusinessMan, I'd suggest giving the information to Damon. He basically is the only PayPal customer service rep who helps (everyone else usually just says I can't help you, and the person who can can't be reached, we'll call/e-mail you back, and they usually don't). I know your case might not exactly fit in with the seller protection policy but how is it even physically possible to have more proof than a whois database record? If it was processed with a real merchant account, the chargeback/complaint would be reversed immediately. The Whois database doesn't lie. The seller protection policy is a joke. I wonder what would happen if no one did a transaction on PayPal unless it complied with the Seller Protection Policy. They would probably be out of business. Damon might be able to help you get one of their chargeback reviewers to see common sense.
posted on January 18, 2002 06:42:08 AM new
Hi Daniel:
I'll be getting ahold of the banking information pretty soon so I can complete the collection of the Judgement. I just wanted to let you know. Once I get that information I'll just forward it to you via this chat forum. How's Germany? -joe-
posted on January 18, 2002 08:17:37 AM new
GU1HToM-
Ripping people off isn't nice. You need to be an honest thief. Advertize a "Microsoft Word Upgrade" for $100 each, then mail them a pencil and a pad of paper.
Then it just becomes a "Quality dispute"... and PP will ignore the complaints completely.
(I want 10% for the idea! Cash only, please. ^_~ )
[ edited by TMMamoru on Jan 18, 2002 08:18 AM ]
posted on January 18, 2002 12:13:22 PM new
ROFLMAO, That is so true. It must be nice for scam artists to have such a useful and helpful tool like PayPal to help and protect them throughout their endeavors.
posted on January 18, 2002 12:59:21 PM new
LMAO!!!!!!!
No I am not a thief & I would not do anything like that.
It just bothers me seeing all this information passed around & then basically being told either you didn't follow the rules.. which change from day to day btw.
Or you did follow the rules but there is no money to be returned.
& Now basically being told that PAYPAL has ruled in your favor. (Dealerjims case) but that you, the PAYPAL client, need to contact the authorities about it.
HELLO PAYPAL?
You don't see anything wrong with this picture?
You have basically agreed that someone is wrong. In some cases multiple times yet instead of acting on their behalf & trying to "get the bastard" you stop trying & tell them that if they need more information they need a supena.
At what point does PAYPAL step in & go after a known criminal & not only lock up their account but get them arrested so that they can not come back under a new name or alias & do it all over yet again?
At what point does PAYPAL stop Harassing the loyal customers who get singled out & locked because the computer says so & start having a real person look into the problems.
Why when your own rules are followed are the rules suddenly bent or changed.
& why is your customer service so poor.
Not an opinion ... statement in fact.
posted on January 18, 2002 01:38:44 PM new
The answer is simple thieves keep the thief in business. Now for a question. Why would they spend $150,000.00 to get back less than $20,000.00.
posted on January 25, 2002 12:54:38 PM new
Well maybe I shouldn't complain. If PayPal keeps protecting these fraudulent sellers, pretty soon thats all PayPal will have left. All the honest members who couldn't get any resolve from PayPal will just close their accounts and do business with a regulated company that will protect them. So go for it scam artists and frauds of the world. You can use PayPal for your endeavors and maybe they won't last much longer. It has been easily spelled out in PayPals TOS how you can defraud their members with no recourse. There are many loopholes. A good scam artist can make a healthy living utilizing PayPal's corrupt rules and be protected every step of the way.
posted on January 25, 2002 02:41:09 PM new
Paypaldamon
I don’t know why PayPal reversed transactions from my account; one is PayPal-fund transactions and another credit card payment and shipped to verified address! PayPal promised that they would put the money back, but never. Now my account is locked!
PAYPAL doesn’t reply my email, and customer service not help me! I sent email to paypaldamon, no reply as well! No reason, no explanation!
posted on January 27, 2002 07:03:39 PM new
I am stuck with a PayPal problem too. Frozen account. No answers to emails. No help from customer service. They email complaints. No access to resolve the problem. Complaints may take up to 30 days to review. They have already decided my case. Sent me an email that I lost. Resticted my acccount. Frozen in time!
Buyer said he never recived the item. Didn't want any tracking through USPS. I didn't provide it. OK...I was stupid. I admit it.
But they will not help me period. Any ideas?
