posted on January 10, 2002 03:03:03 PM new
Let me know if you get any of their computers. I would like to have the contact information on the guy who scammed me out of my money. PayPal is withholding this information so I can't press charges against him.
posted on January 10, 2002 07:48:18 PM new
If I were unlawfully stealing your members money I would expect you to contact the authorities to take care of your members. It would be the right thing to do. You're just asking for scam artists with your BS policies. Its a good thing to know I'll be protected by PayPal if I ever do decide to become a fraudulent seller. PayPal makes it easier to steal peoples money than to just earn it the right way.
posted on January 11, 2002 01:07:30 AM new
Hi Damon,
Thanks for helping me prove my case that PayPal protects fraudulent users. Didn't PayPal send me an email stating that the seller was at fault and had emptied his account? PayPal knows this seller defrauded me and 10 other people and openly admits to withholding any information to catch this crook. Shouldn't it be your responsibility to report a potential fraud? PayPal would report it if it costed them money so why not when it costs it members money?
posted on January 11, 2002 12:00:54 PM new
Hi dealerjim,
Our process (stated on the web site) does advise that we can't guarantee recovery from a party you have a dispute with.
I've already explained:
-our policy
-what you need to do
-where to find information on our anti-fraud efforts
-the fact that we do work with law enforcement
-that you can have the information on the seller with a subpoeana
You have to take action against the seller. The only thing we have found is that the seller didn't comply with the Seller Protection Program---the rest of the dispute needs to be taken up by you.
posted on January 11, 2002 01:43:25 PM new
So you're saying that it is up to the defrauded PayPal member to protect themselves from another PayPal member. PayPal is not committed to protecting their members against fraud? If thats the case then what the hell are people paying you for. It sure isn't for your sense of protection. It would be nice to know that a company that I'm paying could provide some sort of fraud protection. I paid $100 for something I never received and you know this and now you're telling me I've got to spend hundreds more to get any information from you. PayPal knows people can't afford to do that and thats what they're banking on. PayPal is not my friend!!!
posted on January 11, 2002 01:51:58 PM new
Hi dealerjim,
PayPal's verification methods are in place to deter fraud. Our Buyer Complaint Process, as well as Seller Protection, also help reduce the probability of being defrauded. These things can't stop individual actions, which is what your seller did. It is also why you will need to pursue action against the party in question.
Our low fraud rates have been published numerous times, as well as our involvement with law enforcement. It doesn't mean that you can't experience an issue with a party---you need to take this up as I had suggested.
My questions-
-Would sending a check, or a money order, have prevented this party from defrauding you?
posted on January 11, 2002 03:36:07 PM new
Why does PayPal insist on giving its victims a false sense of security?
If I were to become a scam artist, how many PayPal members would I have to scam before PayPal would contact the authorities? 100, 200, 300? I guess I would be protected under PayPal's corporate shield.
It seems to be pretty easy to scam PayPal members as long as you keep the auction price under a couple hundred dollars. I don't see why more fraudulent sellers haven't picked up on this loophole.
If it costs more to pursue the seller than you spent on the item of question then the buyer is basically screwed unless he/she wants to throw good money after bad.
posted on January 11, 2002 03:37:57 PM new
Hi dealerjim,
Did you follow any of the security tips on the section of our web site? It does advise you on how to avoid fraud.
Our Buyer Complaint Process simply means that the seller did not comply with the Seller Protection Policy. This means we will refund the money if it is in the account. Charges of fraud have to be taken up by you.
posted on January 11, 2002 04:11:39 PM new
Hi Jim
<br />
Man it's frustrating isn't,but when I stopped doing business with them I continued taking western union,bank wires, money orders and cashiers checks. Guess what I got to keep my money they didn't. NOT ONE CHARGEBACK.
ALSO DAMON WHERE WAS THEIR TOP NOTCH FRAUD PROTECTION WHEN A 17 YEAR OLD CALIFORNIA STUDENT SCAMMED OVER 1000 PEOPLE OUT OF OVER A MILLION DOLLARS USING PAYPAL THIS PAST DECEMBER.HUMMMMMM
[ edited by club1man on Jan 11, 2002 06:19 PM ]
posted on January 12, 2002 03:02:01 AM new
Club1man,
Thats why they call it Fraud Protection, because it is protecting fraud.
Hi Damon,
Why do you choose to dodge my questions? It's really simple. Can you answer these 3 questions without pasting TOS? I am especially interested in your answer to #2 and #3. I'm not interested in any other response other than direct answers to these questions.
1.Why does PayPal insist on giving its victims a false sense of security?
2.(hypothetically) If I were to become a scam artist, how many PayPal members would I have to scam before PayPal would contact the authorities? 100, 200, 300? I guess I would be protected under PayPal's corporate shield, right?
3.If none of the people could afford to get subpoenas to get my information, then would I just get away scot free?
posted on January 13, 2002 02:43:57 AM new
Yo Damon, where'd you go? It's been over 24 hours and I know you've been here because you've replied to others posts. I had a feeling you wouldn't have the guts to answer those questions. Directly that is.
[ edited by dealerjim on Jan 13, 2002 02:45 AM ]
posted on January 13, 2002 09:38:53 AM new
Damon I wish to ask if it is true or not, that your personal Ebay account has been suspended after 4 negatives? I dont have proof of such and this is merely an inquiry.
posted on January 13, 2002 08:26:56 PM new
Hi Damon,
Don't worry. You're lack of a response to my questions has been answer enough for everybody here. Obviously it pays to be a fraud when it comes to PayPal. Its easy to scam people out of their money when you have a partner like PayPal who will protect you tooth and nail.
posted on January 14, 2002 06:32:44 PM new
Hi dealerjim,
I don't work on weekends. If I do post, it is to look for outstanding issues.
Hi NWREBEL,
I've already responded to that issue in the past. It has nothing to do with your issue, and the issue had nothing to do with fraud. A family member utilized the account and did not pay for some items (using my email alias), which resulted in an NPB (if that is correct). I have an account of my own that is sterling and nobody else has access to it. As an aside, my personal life is none of your business. Just as your personal life is of no importance to any member in the forums. Your issues are entirely professional---stick to it. I have responded politely to you at all times, and I have not been rude to you.
Hi dealerjim,
PayPal has numerous anti-fraud measures in place. They can't, however, protect users from individual behaviors. We do work with law enforcement to help prosecute parties that defraud users. There is also plenty of information out there about how strong our fraud team is.
You haven't answered my questions-
1. How is a check or money order safer? As a matter of fact, online studies have shown that most auction fraud occurs with these payment methods.
posted on January 14, 2002 06:56:38 PM new
Hi dealerjim,
In addition, did you review the terms of use about what our Buyer Complaint Process does? Did you review the Security section on the site about how to avoid problems with sellers?
You could have been taken by this party through any medium you paid through. You would also need to pursue charges against the seller, as this is the party your dispute is truly with. Our Buyer Complaint process simply sees if the seller is in compliance with the Seller Protection Program. If they do not,and there is money in the account, there is a risk of reversal.
Users do need to use some discretion when buying items at an auction site. PayPal, as a payment service, can't:
a) verify the listings
b) verify the quality of the item being presented
c) that the seller will ship the product
I think you would find that pretty common with all payment methods.
posted on January 14, 2002 10:34:02 PM new
Hi nwrebel,
I already explained that issue to you. It has no bearing on your professional issues. A family member used an account,didn't pay, and that is the end of the story. No fraudulent activity took place. I have an account of my own that is fine. I don't post your account issues in specifics, so I would appreciate your not posting personal information on the internet. It is a safety issue, as much as a privacy issue. I have had posters threaten me physically in the past. I will give you a chance to edit the information presented before I take it into my own hands.
posted on January 14, 2002 11:01:47 PM new
Hi Damon,
You haven't answered my questions yet. All I want is a straight answer from you for these 3 questions and then I'll answer yours.
1.Why does PayPal insist on giving its victims a false sense of security?
2.(hypothetically) If I were to become a scam artist, how many PayPal members would I have to scam before PayPal would contact the authorities? 100, 200, 300? I guess I would be protected under PayPal's corporate shield, right?
3.If none of the people could afford to get subpoenas to get my information, then would I just get away scot free?
We all know you won't answer them so I'm probably wasting my time. It's pretty sad that people on these boards have to ask you the same questions multiple times before you'll answer them without sputtering out fragments of PayPal's TOS. I'm just looking for straight forward answers to 3 questions without all the technical jargin. Can you answer them or will PayPal not let you?
posted on January 14, 2002 11:27:57 PM new
Hi dealerjim,
Hi Damon,
You haven't answered my questions yet. All I want is a straight answer from you for these 3 questions and then I'll answer yours.
1.Why does PayPal insist on giving its victims a false sense of security?
(That is your perception. I can't change that. You have responsibility for what transaction you decide to initiate, for what, and to who. We have numerous anti-fraud measures in place to deter fraud, but it isn't going to eliminate the possibility you won't have a problem with an individual.)
2.(hypothetically) If I were to become a scam artist, how many PayPal members would I have to scam before PayPal would contact the authorities? 100, 200, 300? I guess I would be protected under PayPal's corporate shield, right?
(No, as PayPal works closely with law enforcement on all cases of fraud.You can reference the Newsweek article on it. We also comply with all requests for information that come from legal requests)
3.If none of the people could afford to get subpoenas to get my information, then would I just get away scot free?
(This is a hypothetical situation that has absolutely no answer. The end user has to decide what avenues of recourse they want to take against a party that has defrauded them. Not filing, or not seeking recourse against the person, is an issue up to you.How could you prosecute someone without taking the steps of due process? That is why *if you are serious about going after the party that has defrauded you) certain steps need to be taken. Would you like any organization you do business with to release information on you because someone accused you of XYZ without a process in place?)
You keep ignoring the facts:
a) PayPal is a payment service, which allows for payments between point a and point b
b) you could be defrauded through any medium---you have to decide what avenues of recourse will be taken. PayPal can't call someone fraudulent just because you say they are---a legal process has to be followed, which is why we won't release information without a subpoena.
c) PayPal's verification techniques are in place to identify users, but it can't guarantee individual behaviors by any user. The decision of a seller not to send product is an individual behavior that no corporation could control. Verification is an anti-fraud measure for obvious reasons. A party would not want to be easily identifiable.
I think the answers are relatively straightforward.
Would you be accusing the place you bought a money order from of defrauding you if you sent a money order?
No, as you did the following : you bought the money order, put the party you wanted to pay in the "TO" field, and you directed the payment to the party. Once cashed (if there is an issue)the dispute is between the two parties. The same basic principle applies to a check. The same basic principle applies to cash.
No company is going to release information on a party without legal means based on an accusatation alone.
posted on January 15, 2002 04:38:23 AM new
nwrebel, didn't you just post a warning received from the auctionwatch staff to you about posting personal information? you must want your posting account removed. i'll tell you, i'm not sure i'd be as nice as damon's being to you if you posted my personal information on the boards.
posted on January 15, 2002 08:02:57 AM new
stopwhining,
It was a Yahoo transaction. They are investigating it now. At least they want to keep me as a customer unlike PayPal.
Damon,
Maybe I should rephrase question #2.
If I were to become a scam artist, how many PayPal members would I have to defraud before "PAYPAL", "PAYPAL", "PAYPAL" would come after me? If all the people's losses weren't enough to justify spending hundreds to get subpoenas, would you protect me just like you protected the guy that took my money along with ten other members he defrauded? If he can get away with fraud, why couldn't I? PayPal's behavior in this kind of mess only encourages more fraud. Thanks PayPal!!!
Sorry, I know thats a bunch of little questions rolled into one.
posted on January 15, 2002 08:05:39 AM new
nwrebel, you posted his personal e-mail address. it is viewable on ebay, but only if you know the e-mail address, which you just posted.
posted on January 15, 2002 09:35:06 AM new
Hi dealerji,
You are looking for answer#2. I can't give you an answer on #2 because:
a) the party has to be found guilty of fraud, which means individual parties may have to take action against the offending person
b) if there is an issue where it looks like fraud is taking place, the company does work with law enforcement
You can't simply accuse someone of fraud without taking certain steps. We take appropriate actions against accounts that appear to be operating in suspect manner.And we do work with law enforcement to help go after people defrauding other users.
Hi NWREBEL,
I am not advising users of your account status, how many complaints you have had, how many chargebacks you have had,etc. My personal issues have nothing to do with your professional issues. They also have no bearing on the information I supply to users about how our service operates.
posted on January 15, 2002 09:50:58 AM new
Damon these boards are full of double talk by you and your cowboy cohorts at UNREGULATED paypal. I tend to think your credibility should be addressed on the facts and I dont mind reviewing my history in public or in a courtroom as your company will soon have its chance to do so and I have no problems in posting all actions by you, your firm, or anyone connected to these matters until you address the issues instaed of doing the paypal tube snake boogie. Rest assured my goal now is to inform and warn people about your firm until your company plays by the rules and stops twisting the terms of service weekly to cover the obvious screwups. Time will tell.
