posted on June 6, 2002 11:32:40 PM new
"Such costs should be built into the price of the item -- this policy reduces the potential for confusion among bidders about the true cost of an item."
Another bonehead policy that makes no sense. Sellers add all sorts of costs into the handling/processing fee, does ebay reallly think one more fee will leave buyers flabbergasted?
Scenerio:
Seller A) Dear buyer, your total including shipping and handling is $10.00
Buyer A) Ok thanks, I'll send payment right away.
Seller B) Dear Buyer, your total including shipping and handling is $10.60.
Buyer B) What I'm really confused?
Seller B) Yes, I've included Paypal fees for all buyer's total.
Buyer B)huh, I'm really confused?
Seller A) Yes, it's just an overhead cost, we pass all overhead to our customers.
Buyer B) I don't get it, it doesn't say it anywhere in your ad about paypal fees!
Seller B) It also doesn't say my costs for a box, packaging, gas, & labor. We don't break down the costs.
Buyer B)What? You include all that into the price, too? I'm complaining to Safeharbor!
Seller B)That's normal for all businesses to include all overhead.
Buyer B) I'm still confused.
posted on June 6, 2002 11:34:56 PM new
Ebay allows sellers to tack on state sales tax, onto the final price. Aren't buyers confused by that? Shouldn't ebay tell sellers they need to include that into the sales price?
posted on June 7, 2002 12:26:50 AM new
<I did not say this is a matter of law, but Paypal should not be enforcing California law upon me.>
I doubt if this is why Paypal has this policy. More likely, they don't want sellers to discourage buyers from using Paypal by having a surcharge.
A lot depends on your customers. Many of my customers who have lots of money and want my products and are busy people. Having Paypal results in higher bids and pays for itself.
posted on June 7, 2002 12:30:16 AM new
<Sellers may not charge eBay buyers an additional fee for their use of ordinary forms of payment, including acceptance of checks, money orders, electronic transfers or credit cards.>
Is a form of payment that did not exist 3 years ago and only 10% of the population knows about considered "ordinary?"
posted on June 7, 2002 12:34:36 AM new
"More likely, they don't want sellers to discourage buyers from using Paypal by having a surcharge."
Sounds logical if it was totaly enforceable, but they can't get around the loophole that allows a seller to tack a paypal fee to all buyers. "Add 2.5% paypal fee" will discourage the same amount of people as "Add 2.5% paypal fee only if you use paypal."
Actually, if they wanted to discourage sellers from adding a paypal fee, why did they copy the state law about "surcharge?" Why not just blatantly disallow any association of fee and paypal? With that in mind, it unds as if they are just enforcing California law, even on users who are not bound by that law.
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Jun 7, 2002 12:45 AM ]
posted on June 7, 2002 06:43:55 AM new
OK, quickdraw29, I don't have a problem with people recouping PP costs, I don't like the fees either as a seller, but as a buyer the only time it has happened to me it happened in a sneaky manner which violated Ebay rules as well as PP's. That's not to say that other people, you for instance, arent doing it in an above board manner. So let me make sure I am understanding this:
your TOS on your auction page says something like "all buyers will pay a 2.5 percent PayPal fee" ?
If I win one of your auctions, your EOA email will specify shipping, maybe handling AND a 2.5 percent paypal fee?
If your auction page clearly indicates that EVERYBODY pays this "PayPal fee" as you have called it, I don't see a problem, although I cant help but wonder if it doesnt cost you bidders who don't want to pay it or cause you grief when it comes time to close a sale due to the fact that at least 75% of Ebay's buyers are apparently unable to read an entire paragraph of text with any degree of comprehension!!
posted on June 7, 2002 05:36:48 PM new
I would like to make a suggestion. On the back of your Visa/Mastercard there is an 800 number to call about your credit card bill. Call that number, speak to a Customer Service Rep and ask them about adding or charging for the use of a Visa/Mastercard. They will tell you that it is illegal and probably give you the direct number to either Visa or Mastercard. Do you want to know how I know this. My husband bought a $8.50 item from an antique mall and the clerk at that mall charged him to use his Visa card. I called the card company and told them about it, she said it was illegal and proceeded to give me Visa's number to report it and Visa would take away the credit card priviledges. Of course I didn't do it but if it had been a larger sum I would have. I for one charge as close to actual shipping charges and I only charge partial use of a bubble envelope, no where do I add an additional fee for PayPal. The way to do business is being legimate. This business about adding charges to everyones auction is not ethical business. Just my opinion.
posted on June 9, 2002 03:09:22 PM new
Here are copys of Emails that I received from Ebay and Paypal concerning this matter.
Ebay:
Currently, we do not allow additional costs for payment processing to be
passed on the bidder. This is viewed as a form of fee circumvention,
and is not allowed. The only cost that eBay allows to be charged
outside of the bid is shipping, handling and currency exchange fees.
PayPal:
Under Visa, MasterCard, Discover, and American Express regulations and the
laws of several states, including California, merchants may not charge a
fee to the buyer for accepting credit card payments (often called a
"surcharge". In order to comply with these laws and regulations, PayPal
has amended its User Agreement so that, effective March 31, 2001, sellers
may not charge a fee for accepting PayPal. This restriction does not
prevent sellers from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of
goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a
surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through
PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid
through other payment methods).
Clearly this is not allowed by Ebay or PayPal. But how do we get sellers to stop this practice?
posted on June 9, 2002 03:26:16 PM new
I guess we could let sellers know that they can't charge a surchange for pay pal if we come across their auctions and if they have a problem with that we can then point them to this thread and if that doesn't make them stop with the surchage letting pay-pal and/or E-bay know about the surchange. The only drawback to this is it may cause pay pal to cancel the seller's account and cause the seller to get pissed at us. I noticed on the auctions for the seller I told it's agasint the tos to have a paypal surcharge, this seller has stopped mentioning pay pal surchages in their auctions.
posted on June 9, 2002 03:47:00 PM new
"we do not allow additional costs for payment processing to be passed on the bidder."
Their policy states the seller can pass the payment processing on to the bidder if you include it in the start bid.
There are so many inconsistancies with their policy and email replies that I can not see how their policy can be binding. They state all sellers are bound by California law which is absolutely wrong. If that were true how come all sellers aren't bound by California law when it comes to ticket scalping, which their policy states sellers are bound by the law in their state!
Adding the fee later is not fee circumventing not anymore than adding shipping and handling is. It's a seperate service that is to paid seperate.
posted on June 9, 2002 04:01:25 PM new
Here's a really dumb comment from ebay concerning this matter:
"Once you begin charging fees directly for that service, it is no longer a convenience."
What? If you have a gas station attendant pump your gas, you pay extra for that covenience, and it remains a convenince to the buyer because they still don't have to get out of the car. You buy a convenience store you pay extra, and it remains a convenience to the buyer because they don't have to wonder a huge store.
Since the buyer is sending paypal it doesn't take any extra effort on the part of the buyer to type in the extra amount as it will likely be the same amount of digits.
Isn't this billion dollar company concerned about their reputation? They come across as a bunch of amateurs. I wouldn't want to invest in their company and devote my future business with a bunch of amateurs.
posted on June 9, 2002 04:17:07 PM new
quickdraw, you just don't understand. PayPal is only saying what Visa, Mastercard, Discover Card etc. say. You cannot charge your buyer a surcharge for using them. It is a convenience for you and your buyer to accept or use these cards. You cannot pass your cost to the buyer. It is in their TOS. You have to abide by their rules or TOS which ever you prefer and if you don't you lose the priviledge of accepting them. Bottom Line in your TOS you cannot type that you are charging X% for using paypal. Why not say I do not accept PayPal and get over it. Also if you say you are charging a few for PayPal service someone will turn you in and your auctions will be ended. It happened to a friend of mine.
Also what is the true cost of an item? Anything that you want to charge is the true cost. Whether it be higher or lower than another one of the same it doesn't matter, they mean what is YOUR true cost. I guess you true cost would be to add a PayPal charge.
posted on June 9, 2002 04:41:07 PM new
"You cannot charge your buyer a surcharge for using them. It is a convenience for you and your buyer to accept or use these cards. You cannot pass your cost to the buyer. It is in their TOS."
I know we can't charge a surcharge, but we can recover paypal fees. Paypal says "This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge."
Accepting paypal is no more a convenience for me as a seller than me picking up a carton of milk with the rest of my groceries at the grocery store. I'm there already there. Accepting paypal does not save me from going to the bank. To get the cash from Paypal directed into my bank account takes several days. Plus I get morons who send paypal in two seperate payments adding to my costs.
You are wrong, sellers can pass their costs to the buyer. Ebay says add it to the start bid; Paypal says you can add it to the handling/processing. Both of which is in their TOS.
posted on June 9, 2002 09:19:33 PM new
It won't take experienced Ebay buyers long to figure out who is padding their start price or handling fees to cover paypal and related charges, or boost their margin just a tick on each sale. Sellers of truly hard to find items may be able to pull this off, perhaps for quite a while, but those who are trying to market more common consumer items will find themselves up against those who are buying well enough to be able to eat those charges and offer lower or no handling charges and lower start prices....the free market..you gotta love it!
. In order to comply with these laws and regulations, PayPal