posted on December 17, 2000 05:31:27 PM new
HJW - Actually just trying to attach some reality to the political moniker conservative. As pointed out by several posters both liberal and conservative are abstract words attached to values to sustain a division between our political parties.
jamesoblivion - That was an interesting link, for a minute I thought our new President had an independent thought.
Borillar - No baiting here, just wanted to see some of those values people want to return to. Strange though people seem to be wanting to return to something that they themselves do not know what exactly it is.
Nearthesea - Not sure what exactly my views are called. On every issue I am for responsibility of the individual.
Which means on abortion - I am for the individual making a responsible decision that they are capable of living with. Based on exploring all of the options.
Gun Control - I am for all gun owners taking responsibility when they elect to use them. That includes those men and women in law enforcement when an innocent is killed by them.
Death Penalty - Can't support a policy that has returned to the same arbritary standards that led to it being declared unconstitutional in 1976. If there really was truth and justice in our courts I could feel differently. However, when I see the shear arrogance of prosecutors here in Illinois when their cases are overturned on DNA. It makes me wonder has an innocent actually been put to death. Since I had nothing to do with it; I can sleep soundly but can't help but ponder how does that prosecutor sleep.
On the same you are 100% right there is a such a thing as extremist in everything.
posted on December 18, 2000 05:20:38 AM new
Your posts remind me of the opinions of a guy I work with, Dick. All in all, he's a pretty nice guy, just a bit too certain of himself. I can relate to that since I often behave the same way and don't often carefully evaluate the views of others. We share a degree of elitist arrogance that many find off-putting.
posted on December 18, 2000 05:44:14 AM new
Networker
Thank you for your reply. I was interested in your experience
and viewpoint on the effect of conservatism during your lifetime
as a Black, well educated individual.
The lofty, professorial tone was a little distracting...ie the
reference to abstract versus concrete words. As codasaurus
suggested in another thread, Why not simply post what you think
and believe? You don't need to dazzel us with your brilliance.
posted on December 18, 2000 06:14:12 AM new
HJW - I have to question that statement in your last post. Am I supposed to speak with ebonics and act like those classical idiots your media loves to keep in front of America. Or am I supposed to be like Clarence Thomas, just as smart on paper but content to sit back and let you do what you please. Or would you prefer the rhyming style of Jesse Jackson. Sometimes Helen, one should think long and hard about what they say. And how it sounds in the context of the reality of the world. Since you asked, Conservative views haven't had any effects on my life. Because you first have to accept that an African American has a different take on Conservative. Justice Thomas is the only African American on the whole planet that thinks he can possibly share the same view on Conservative with White America. And when I think about it the high court keeps him out of our leadership where he could do some real damage.
xardon - Did you work with him or was he the boss? Oh I evaluate the views of others, which is why I reply point by point. No need in wasting 25 blocks on the board with tit for tat. Which is funny because that way always seems to lead to someone stooping to insults.
posted on December 18, 2000 06:40:58 AM new
Oh, he used to be the boss. Now that we're both middle-aged, though, we've reached an understanding and our relationship is much less volatile.
It's in my nature to rise to insults, perceived or real. It gives me an opportunity to gauge people by the thickness of their skin. You're doin' OK so far.
posted on December 18, 2000 07:29:14 AM new
HJW - Sorry to flat out just draw such a line. But when someone proceeds to tell me how to talk, I have to find out what they are expecting. I have in this and several other threads posted what I think Conservative Values eludes to in America. I have also said what I hoped they meant. Funny thing though no one with them will clarify either way. But I'll be brief and restate.
I hope that Conservative movement is looking to return to prayer in school. When kids learned and minded their manners. When a company like ADT wouldn't have enough possible customers to afford commercials. When people were way more responsible than they are now. But let's just face it some of those folks are so far right that they think the country started going downhill when slavery ended. And a lot of them post here.
Which is why an educated African-American bothers them. Because being able to speak from an historical perspective of this great place forces them to accept that they are losing that battle on all fronts. And I have developed interesting ways to draw them out and immediately move them to ignore. Too often I've see them disrupt otherwise productive threads.
xardon - I hope you didn't think that was intended as an insult. I am historically known for being direct in that department.
posted on December 18, 2000 08:42:16 AM new
Intentions are, at best, a murky business around here. Just as being direct is good, but hazardous.
I like an "in your face" dialogue despite of, and because of, the potential for conflict. Conflict drives a topic. Intelligent conflict, narrowly skirting the CG's, can be a wondrous thing to behold.
posted on December 19, 2000 05:53:39 PM new
Humm got another taste of the Comppassionate Conservatisim today. Seems Bush intends to meet with 5 African American religous leaders tomorrow. Funny thing no one has a list of these Bush Proclaimed leaders. We do know that none of them come from the CME, AME, NBC, NBU, MBC, or the COGIC, so I will have to assume he found some African American Catholic priests to meet with. I guess he's so confident with being handed his leadership he intends to hand the Black Community its leadership.
I do give him credit for one thing he has managed to place African Americans in positions of leadership of an entire part of government which by chance in this Global Economy is a very vital part. The foreign policy of the nation. That is far more than any democrat administration has ever done. So I am going to give him a chance and see where this stuff goes. As long as he keeps that conservative stuff limited to post 1968 but pre 1980 American values sounds good to me. Besides I still got four years till I can officially retire from the reserves so he is for one week end a month and four weeks every year my Commander In Chief. Heck I might even get that elusive promotion to Lieutenant Colonel.
posted on December 19, 2000 08:40:46 PM new
Networker, or anyone here, tell me what greatness or whatever it is they see in the Reverend Jesse Jackson.
Is he a Rev.? Who pays his way to all these rallies, protests....?
And if he really thinks he is following in the footsteps of Martin Luther King Jr, MLK Jr I believe is probably turning over in the grave right now.
posted on December 19, 2000 09:45:13 PM new
nearthesea - Your question is a little off topic. But since no one is addressing the topic makes no difference.
Firstoff, I could never speak for all African Americans. I am not representative of all African Americans, heck to be honest I often think I form my own demographic within Black America.
Now with that established I will answer your questions that aren't my opinions first.
Yes Jesse is an ordained minister, in fact this summer he completed his Masters In Divinity.
His costs are paid by the Rainbow Push Coalition. Contrary to what some might think Rainbow Push and the NAACP both receive a lot of money. Some of it from our Government in the form of Grants. Most of it from individual and corporate sponsors. I happen to be both an individual and corporate sponsor to both groups. In addition Jesse makes a lot of money on the public speaking circuit and income from his books and sales of his speeches. So he isn't exactly poor.
Having spoken with the man on numerous occasions. Having went to school with his daughter-in-law and a supporter of his son's political campaigns. I do not beleive he has ever tried to follow in Martin Luther Kings footsteps. Part of the problem was caused by Dr. King himself, this is sad to say but he came to represent the entire cause. The NAACP took a back seat to Dr. King, the Black Ministry as a guiding body took a backseat. The institutions like the Southern Poverty Law Center took a back seat to Dr. King. In short Dr, King became everything. And after his death Black America has just started to recover.
Now as for your question about what greatness. I see Jesse as a symbol of hope and a champion of the continued struggle to completely level the playing field. Let's except the truth, we as a Nation are 35 years into Civil Rights. I hope no one is silly enough to think that 300 years of oppression and building of a White Dominant mindset has been erased in 35 years.
Now your comment about turning over in his Grave. He probably has done that more than once. But it wasn't over anything Jesse did. He if turning over in your Grave can be done is doing it because no one has had the courage to advance the next part of the struggle. That next part IMHO isn't suitable for an Auction Watch Community discussion. But that next part is why he was IMHO killed. And sadly the Black Community has been in an almost Neutral Steer ever since he was killed. Sure we have seen gradual advances over the last 35 years but nothing like would could have been.
In case you don't know it Neutral Steer is something that a battle tank does. It is when the tank spins around in a complete circle never moving from its original position. Added the definition for clarity as you can see the term fits.
posted on December 19, 2000 11:22:29 PM new
It's simple. Conservatives figure 9 out of the 10 Amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights were written by secret Communists. Liberals figure there are 10 more somewhere that have been suppressed by Dow Chemical.
posted on December 19, 2000 11:31:43 PM new
Compassionate Conservatives will entertain the notion that there may be some merit to the First Amendment. Moderate Conservatives would vote for BOTH the First and Second.
www.fotocop.com
posted on December 20, 2000 01:11:18 PM new
nearthesea - A Masters isn't required to be called Reverand. All you have to do is get some ORGANIZED RELIGOUS body to ordain you.
Yes he is the founder of the Rainbow Coalition. He is also the founder of Operation PUSH. The Rainbow Coalition was supposed to be a Spin Off organization of PUSH to pursue the Economic Empowerment of Black America. IMHO with Jesse at its helm it has failed miserably in that specific mission. That failure is because he keeps gravating to issues that fall under the mission of PUSH. We have discussed it at great length on several occasions. But he is a man that can't turn his back on a cause involving what he perceives either real of imagined to be an issue where African Americans are being mistreated or singled out solely because they are Black.
posted on December 20, 2000 01:27:00 PM new
Personally, I find the Rev. Jesse's statement that "Zionism is a poisonous weed" to fall under the aegis of the Rev. King's clarificatioon on the matter:
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land. This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share. Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
(From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," _Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76. Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., _This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr._ (New York, 1971), pp. 234-235.)
So.... the very Reverend Jesse can kiss my Jewish butt.
posted on December 20, 2000 02:23:15 PM new
jamesoblivion - Jesses statement, "Zionism is a poisonous weed" isn't and wasn't a reference to jews or semetic people. That statement falls under what I call poor choice of words to expound a point.
The Zionism Jesse speaks about was the back to Africa ignorance often spoke of by my people. In short Jesse use of zionism had nothing to do with jews going home. It was talk of Blacks abandoning America and going to Africa. To further have you ever heard of the 10 Points of The Nation of Islam. Well one of those positions is that Blacks in America should be given their own land in America rich in resources and allowed to build their own Nation with Islam as taught by Farrakhan as its religion.
That fantasy is often referred to as Black Zionism. Jesse was talking about this zionism. Which as you can see has nothing to do with Jews. I would hope that this helps clarifies that statement for you. In fact your posting of Dr. Kings letter should have led you to this conclusion. I will assume that book didn't include who the letter was sent to.
See how easy it is form a conclusion based on not understanding. Being Jewish you assumed that Jesse was talking about zionism as jews perceive it. When in fact he was speaking of zionism as blacks inappropriately use it. I regret the inappropriate use of your word but heck somebody I will assume thought it sounded good. Needless to say that particular speech writer was fired.
posted on December 20, 2000 03:43:59 PM new
jamesoblivion - Why not post the three sentances before that one and three sentances after that one. Or are you going to allow yourself to harp on one sentenace from one speech, that I know had nothing to do with Jews.
It is no secret that Blacks hold some rather uninformed views of Jews. I am not one of them and neither is Jesse, in case you didn't know this. I am an active supporter of The Jewish Council for Youth Services. Formerly called the Young Men's Jewish Council, located at 30 W. Washington St., Chicago, IL. I went to their summer camp called Camp Henry Horner for 5 summers as a youth, I was there for 2 summers with Jesse Jr. Trust me you have taken the words out of context.
I would have thought instead of harping on one lingustic error on the discussion that led to the Torah. You would have asked yourself how does he know about The Torah and Jewish Congregations. Instead you harped on the error which was only an error in the Jewish Alphabet not in what some of your congregations use to name God.
And the romance translation of the same. So I challenge you to read the whole speech and then say it was an attack on semitism.
posted on December 20, 2000 03:49:54 PM new
Post the three sentences before and the three sentences after and I shall comment then.
I did not call into question your credentials as a fair-minded, non bigoted person. Relax.
Jesse Jackson is a bigot, however, and there is more on record to show this, including actions, if you are of the inclination that those speak louder than words.
posted on December 20, 2000 03:53:10 PM new
For the record, I wasn't "harping" on a linguistic error. My impression of you was that you enjoy spirited debate. I did not initiate the discussion on what "Jehova" means, and I refrained from posting when it originally occured, because I have no problem with you or anyone making a little mistake. When it was brought up again, and [stusi?] asserted that you were in error regarding the matter, you stated that he (or she? lol) was the one in error. Since that was not true, and many people read these forums, I felt obliged to clarify the matter. If I in any way insulted you, and you felt unecessarily harped on, I unconditionally apologize for it.
posted on December 20, 2000 04:40:28 PM new
jamesoblivion - If a person thinks I am a bigot because I put the agenda of Black America first well I would just have to carry that title. Nothing more nothing less.
You didn't insult me and no apology is required.
I agree to disagree on the issue of Jesse Jackson. But I just hate to see misunderstanding of Rhetoric place a wedge between Blacks and Jews in America. Its bad enough we got that nut Farrakhan running around doing it. Just like I hate to see ignorant items created to present false stereotypes run around masquaraded as Black Americana. When they have a better more appropriate name. As you probably noticed another famous poster made a point to refresh the community on my views about that.
Jesse Jackson like him or hate him is a symbol to my people. Now I might not agree with all that he symbolizes. I do realize that absent a great Black awakening to a great many things in America. Jesse will just have to do. Trust me on this one America isn't ready economically for the Great Black awakening. And Black America has a lot of internal excess baggage to rid itself of before being awakened.
posted on December 20, 2000 04:51:43 PM new
Netowrker, Now you are being honest, and I admire that. I'm glad that you aren't going to continue spinning things every which way. I too hate that rhetoric causes wedges that don't belong there.
posted on December 20, 2000 05:04:06 PM new
networker-what are the missing sentences that supposedly exonerate Jackson from his "poison weed" speech being directed at Jews? you danced around your defense!
posted on December 20, 2000 05:17:45 PM new
james- are you saying that the all-knowing poster in question is now admitting that there were no other sentences exonerating Jackson's anti-semitism? and that this is acceptable to you because it is honest? networker- that despite his anti-semitism "Jesse will just have to do... as a symbol to Blacks"? is this true? is there no prominent Black leader who would share MLK's sentiments as stated in his previously referred to letter? must you settle for an anti-semite leader despite your involvement with the Jewish community? how would your Jewish friends react to your support of Jackson? or are you hiding this from them? are you a hypocrite or am i once again, in your opinion, wrong about my own religion?
[ edited by stusi on Dec 20, 2000 05:44 PM ]
posted on December 20, 2000 05:51:17 PM new
See james why some topics aren't suitable for some AW Members. Look quick stusi runs to I am wrong.
stusi - I asked jamesoblivion to post them so I could read them for myself. I haven't the foggiest what speech james is referring to or who Jesse gave it too. Heck those words sounded more like something Farrakhan would say. You know me if I knew what the sentences were, I would have cheerfully posted them myself. Then put the offensive sentence in its proper context.
Unlike other posters around here I don't let people run around mouthing off for the sheer pleasure of trumping them with facts. I just trump with facts and then let them do what they will or may with them. Think back to the trump card about the constitution and the need for so much clarity in one area. Codasaurus still hasn't been able to place a rhetorical spin on that. So instead he ventures to old threads about Jim Crow Memorabilia. Then proceeds to entertain the masses with selective excerpts that minus the begining and end say nothing.
I at first thought jamesoblivion was doing the same thing. But to avoid that allegation, I just asked for the begining and end. Then I thought it doesn't matter because he has formed his opinion. Which is why I agreed to disagree.
Since you are here, I wanted to apologize to you for the Victim Of An Ignorant Pulpit statement. Like I said to the moderators it was little cutting to the quick.
And with that said, can I ask you what credentials do I need to post. And what are your credentials since mine seem to be so important....lol...lol I also asked because I got a moderation for posting my credentials once. In fact if you want to read them go to the thread that codasaurus links to in that much ado about nothing post in the Adolf Hitler was man of the year thread. I think some of my education is on page 3 or 4.
