posted on December 1, 2002 04:06:30 PM new
I was defrauded by a PayPal verified seller. He didn't send any goods -- this was an eBay auction for about $500.
I am following the PayPal rules - first, tried to contact the seller. He went non-registered with eBay and disconnected his phone. No emails returned.
I then filed a PayPal Buyer Complaint Form within the prescribed timeframe. PayPal took 30 days and responded that they were unable to recover any funds (no money in the seller's account).
I had also filed an eBay Online Fraud Complaint Form. eBay responded that since I used a credit card (through PayPal) to pay the verified seller, eBay fraud protection would cover the loss only if a credit card company claim (chargeback) was denied.
Reluctantly, I filed a chargeback claim with my credit card company.
Is this the correct procedure? How can PayPal get upset with me about the chargeback when their owners (eBay) require a chargeback claim be filed prior to considering a fraud insurance claim?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
[ edited by wmb003 on Dec 1, 2002 04:42 PM ]
posted on December 1, 2002 06:02:11 PM new
that sounds right,if your chargeback is accepted ,you get your money back and ebay owes you nothing.
now,since seller account is empty,this chargeback will be absorbed by paypal.
did you check his feedback,are you the only one he defrauded??
if he has defrauded a bunch,he has a big paypal deficit .
posted on December 1, 2002 06:08:13 PM new
Did you READ this before sending $500.00 to a complete STRANGER:
"What does it mean to be Verified?
A Verified member maintains a confirmed bank account on our site. Because International members cannot use our verification system, no International member will have a Verified status.
Why does PayPal ask its members to become Verified?
Because financial institutions are required by law to screen account holders, PayPal's verification process increases security when you pay parties you do not know. Please note that PayPal's verification system does not constitute an endorsement of a member, nor a guarantee of a member's business practices. You should always consider other indicators when evaluating members, including length of PayPal membership and reputation scores (on eBay or other auction sites, if applicable).
Do I have to become Verified?
Once you have sent $2,000 with your PayPal account, you must become Verified to continue sending money with our service. International accounts are subject to different limits.
How does verification benefit me?
Verification gives you some more information about the people with whom you transact through PayPal, so you may make more informed decisions. Please remember that verification is currently available only to our U.S. members, and a status of International simply means that we are unable to ascertain more about the member at this time.
How do I take advantage of PayPal's verification process?
There are several ways to take advantage of PayPal's verification process and decrease your fraud risks:
When you receive a payment: Log in to your account and go to the "History" subtab of the "My Account" tab. Find the payment in question and choose the status link (e.g. "Pending" in the Status column. This will take you to a payment details page. Next to the sender's name, you will find their verification status (Verified, Unverified, or International).
When you send a payment: As you are sending a payment, on the "Send Money - check the details of your payment" page, a reputation link is provided where you may view the recipient's status (Verified, Unverified, International).
Note: PayPal's verification system does not constitute an endorsement of a member, nor a guarantee of a member's business practices. You should always consider other indicators when evaluating members, including length of PayPal membership and reputation scores (on eBay or other auction sites, if applicable)."
I LOVE PayPal...& I use it with good ole COMMON SENSE!! When I buy something valuable, I use a CREDIT CARD & NOT thru PP!! When I sell something valuable, I accept only MO's or Cashier's Checks
Will PP end you use of their service because you did a credit card chargeback? PROBABLY! Good rationale for NOT using PayPal when buying something very valuable!
posted on December 2, 2002 05:58:03 AM new
Will PP end you use of their service because you did a credit card chargeback? PROBABLY! Good rationale for NOT using PayPal when buying something very valuable
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this is interesting,if you have been defrauded of 500 dollars which is no small change on my books,and paypal said sorry,seller has no money in his paypal account and ebay said it wont do anything until you file chargeback-what should a buyer do??
-file chargeback with his cc issuer and risk the loss of using paypal??
-if he does not file chargeback,then ebay would do nothing.
the only way he can keep his paypal account in good standing and make ebay happy is to file chargeback and then when paypal said sorry,we dont agree with this chargeback and then you tell your issuer to drop the issue and then tell ebay to give you a portion of the 500 back,many months later.
of course the best way to pay is to buy from a seller who has a merchant account and accepts your credit card directly,but not every ebay seller has a merchant account.
whatever you bot for 500,is that consider a big bargain compared to retail store price??
posted on December 2, 2002 10:00:46 AM new
At the time of the transaction, the seller had nothing but positive eBay feedback and was PayPal verified. All appeared fine.
According to the PayPal TOS, PayPal may limit your account due to chargebacks because of:
Initiation by a buyer of a reversal process through the buyer's issuing bank without first pursuing the Buyer Complaint process ..
or
Excessive disputes or reversals ..
I don't believe either apply to me. I believe I have followed the correct processes in what seemed a reasonable transaction. Especially confusing are the mixed directions from eBay and PayPal.
BTW, the item for $500 was a fairly good buy .. not outrageously low (warranting concern). As a reseller, I had a buyer with an open order lined up for a small profit.
[ edited by wmb003 on Dec 2, 2002 10:06 AM ]
posted on December 2, 2002 10:17:18 AM new
so you bot the item for resale,hoping to flip and make a profit.
unfortunately your supplier skips town with your 500 dollars.
chalk it up to experience,know your supplier.
for items of 500 dollars,good feedback is not enough,it has to be over 100 or more positive feedback,the more the merrier-it shows the seller has been around long enough and does well enough to have inventory on hand.
look for sellers with over 500 net positive feedback and been around for over 1 year.
posted on December 2, 2002 10:29:23 AM new
Also, the seller had the eBay ID Verify as well. Just goes to show, you never know. And I agree with the suggestions.
However, both PayPal and eBay are supposed to have programs in place to "make the environment a safer trading place".
I have seen many posts that suggest always using a credit card with PayPal transactions. This will probably result in my receiving full credit from the credit card company for the disputed transaction. There is not a specific violation of the PayPal TOS (in fact, I followed all the rules). However, as you've stated, PayPal can terminate or limit an account at any time for any reason.
Had I not used a credit card, I could file a $175 fraud claim with eBay ($200 less the $25 deductible), plus $200 with the supplemental PayPal insurance. Total $375.
So which is better, considering the risks? Maybe the answer is for any eBay/PayPal transaction under $400, do not use a credit card. If over $400, use a credit card. And always try to use a credit card directly with the merchant. Lastly, if it's not a payment for an eBay auction, always use a credit card, as there's no supplemental insurance from either eBay or PayPal.
[ edited by wmb003 on Dec 2, 2002 10:44 AM ]
posted on December 2, 2002 01:50:28 PM new
i think the best thing to do is to find out where to get these nifty stuff for 500 and pay with a credit card.
posted on December 17, 2002 10:46:29 AM new
Stopwhining, feedback is not everything. I had exactly the same thing happen to me. The seller had a 235 rating with 1 retaliatory neg and he was Paypal verified and had been on Ebay for a couple of years.
You have done the correct things. Now do the chargeback with your credit card. Most credit card companies will honor the chargeback because they have nothing to lose. If they refuse the chargeback, you might not pay them and they would be out the money. If they honor it, Paypal is out the money and you are still their happy customer. Thus, most chargebacks go through.
Paypal did close my account after several months. Be sure to change the email address on your Paypal acct so that if they close it, no one can send you money that you can't get to. I eventually contacted Damon and he had my account reviewed and re-opened since I followed their TOS.
[ edited by stormypetr on Dec 17, 2002 10:50 AM ]
posted on December 17, 2002 12:01:09 PM new
this is unfortunate,a seller with over 200 feedback and still skip town.
i guess if i lose my job and i need money to live,why not scam big time and run off with a large sum of money??
hey,dig out all the glorious pictures of things sold long time ago or just right click on any item which sells well on ebay and list them.
ebay said buyer beware,but how??
posted on December 22, 2002 08:46:57 AM new
An update ... the chargeback was denied by the credit card company. Their rules state that a chargeback claim must be filed within 60 days of the charge. At this point I will refile with eBay fraud and hopefully this will result in some ($175) of the $500 being returned.
The 60-day chargeback rule is interesting. If you follow all the eBay and PayPal timeframes (and they take their sweet time), it is very likely you will always be out of the 60-day window with your credit card company (interesting, hmm...)
Thus the dilemma -- to preserve your chargeback rights, you must file before the PayPal process is complete. This is surely grounds for losing your PayPal account.
My advice -- always use a credit directly with the seller if at all possible.
posted on December 22, 2002 04:43:36 PM new
the problem is that many ebay sellers do not have means to accept your credit card.
what about billpoint,i think if you have used billpoint,you can hit the seller smack in the face when you file chargeback,if i recall,billpoint will go right into his bank account and get your money back,provided he does have fund in his bank account?? or his bank account is still open.
be careful buying from individuals in auction,here today gone tomorrow,500 dollars is not a small sum.
i think you can file a case with FBI and usps mail fraud team.
you can get a form from the post office.
posted on January 7, 2003 02:36:57 PM new
You should be able to get $200 from Paypal as well which will get you close to what you are out. If Ebay gives you the $175, you make a copy of the check and send it with some documentation to Paypal. Paypal does not tell you how to do this but you can contact [email protected]. That's how I got mine. I hope you are not past time on these venues.
in the Status column. This will take you to a payment details page. Next to the sender's name, you will find their verification status (Verified, Unverified, or International).
